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20 Jul 2021 11:27:48
CSF, you started a threat yesterday about the size of our squad (40 players and counting) . The thread went off a little on a tangent, so I thought I would start a new one to reply.
Our squad is bloated and some clear management in terms of ins and outs is needed. I suppose that is why the club were looking for a DoF for so long. Woodward seemed to only be able to see things from an accountant's perspective, players are assets, and he couldn't let them leave below their "value", even if that meant dishing out big contracts to players who weren't playing. Like a fat kid hoarding all the sweets, even the ones he doesn't like and has no intention of eating.

I think you need to break a squad down into categories to fully understand it and work out where it is.

The first category is the players who are clear first choice and will start every game if fit more or less unless you are resting them. In an ideal squad this should be as close to 11 players as possible. The more positions in the first 11 that need strengthening then obviously the weaker the team is. At United I would say DDG, Henderson, AWB, Maguire, Shaw, Bruno, Pogba, Cavani and Rashford form this group. Sancho should go in this group but it's dangerous to assume he will be having never played for us. That's 9 maybe 10 players, which on the surface isn't bad. The problem is two of them are keepers so obviously both won't play at the same time. While Cavani will need replacing next summer, and Pogba's situation is far from certain. Which means next summer even if Sancho does make it into this group, we may only have 7 players who are nailed on first choice AND good enough (DDG or Henderson whichever one stays, AWB, Shaw, Maguire, Bruno, Rashford and Sancho) .

The second category is young players with potential who maybe aren't quite ready for a regular first team spot. Players like Amad, Pellistri, Garner, Laird, Williams, Mengi, Hannibal, Shoretire. These players need carefully selected loans where they will play regular football and develop their game.

The third category is your squad players who either are good enough to offer something or have the potential to be future first team regulars. Heaton, Lindelof, Telles, Dalot, Tuanzebe, McTominay, Fred, Lingard, Donny, Greenwood and Martial.

The rest fall into the category where they have either declined to not being of a huge use on the pitch (although they may still be useful to have around for experience) or they are not and will not ever be good enough. Players like Grant, Jones, Bailly (more so because he just can't stay fit), Matic, Mata, James, Andreas Pereira, Chong.

Now obviously there will be some debate among fans over who goes in which category, some won't see Maguire as good enough for the first category, they may feel the same about DDG or Henderson. While I'd also imagine there will be some debate between who falls in the third and fourth categories as well.

The way I see it the only players from the third and fourth categories I'd e sad to see leave are Greenwood and McTominay.

The trick that John Murtough now has to do is work on getting the correct development pathway for the players in the second group. While trying to readdress the balance between the number of players in the first category and the final two categories. He will need to navigate the goalkeeper issue (DDG or Henderson, one needs to move on for the other to flourish), he will need to sort out which players are leaving (Pogba etc), and how important they are to the side, while he'll also have to strive to bring in players who are good enough to go straight into the first team and improve them.

I think we have the seeds of a very good side, but we need to clear away a lot of the clutter and create space for them to grow and develop. While supplementing it with top class players. In reality we just need the club to be run as a top class football club and not a trust fund.

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20 Jul 2021 11:53:48
Yeah, CSM. Stop with the threats! 😁.

20 Jul 2021 12:33:53
Haha, typo *thread.

20 Jul 2021 14:19:18
Shappy, that was a very long and extended threat. CSF is probably asleep already 😉.

21 Jul 2021 17:09:12
Is Shappy getting paid by the word on this site?

{Ed077's Note - we couldnt afford that.}

21 Jul 2021 17:48:36
😂 if I was I don't think I'd have student loan🤷🏻‍♂️, getting paid per word definitely sounds better than LPU's idea of me being charged per word😬🤣.

{Ed077's Note - Even the likes of Elon Musk and Jeff Bezos couldnt afford to have you on such scheme Shaps :-D}

21 Jul 2021 22:51:13
Good post shappy but i'd definitely put greenwood in the second or first category and we need squad players. Every decent team has their water carriers. The steady eddies that you know what you are getting but won't chamge games but can close space and steady the ship like mc fred when the formation changes. The other flaw in yiur theory is If we got 11 or fourteen first class players there would be no room for the kids or other squad players to break thrpugh or be caught in the cracks between stay in and ship out. vdb the perfect example. I agree we need shod of the chaff but we can't throw out the wheat too. Definitely a fine balancing act that hopefully murtough and fletch can improve on.

23 Jul 2021 07:09:27
Ole needs to follow the Fergie way and let players go at the right time. Let Mata, Grant, Matic, Pogba, Martial and Lingard go and when you decide what keeper is 1st choice let the other go as well.

23 Jul 2021 10:37:35
CSF, I don't know how much input the managers actually have over players being let go. Jones for example had played once under Ole and a couple of times under Jose but was still given a new deal.

I suspect that was more about keeping an "asset" rather than a request from the manager to keep an integral player.

I think we often tie the players the club signs, sells or gives new contracts to, to the manager at the time. While certainly they will be involved in that process, how much control they have I'd assume depends on how the club is set up. Under Sir Alex I think what he said went more or less. I'm not sure that has been the case since he retired.

15 Jul 2021 00:28:20
Messi signs a 5yr deal with 50% cut

Now their is a man who knows to make a deal. Cr7 would want full pay for 5 years and only get 2 if lucky.

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15 Jul 2021 09:02:23
I suspect Messi will stay at Barcelona for another 2 years, then leave with the rest of his contract being paid up. Effectively getting 5 years salary for two years work, which actually means that his 50% pay cut would equate to a pay rise.

I expect this has all been worked out to get around Barcelona's salary issue.

15 Jul 2021 18:23:26
Messi is going to pay Barcelona £180million to go and play in the US when he is 36?
I think Messi is quite happy to stay at Barcelona now till he is 40, collect his £300million contract, his £30million a year endorsements and retire as the world's first billion dollar player.

16 Jul 2021 10:55:04
Grim, No Barcelona are going to probably pay up the rest of Messi's contract to release him early. Thus he would get paid for 5 years but only play for 2. So even with a 50% pay cut he will still be effectively being paid a higher salary.

{Ed001's Note - either way, he is in the top few highest paid players in the world and no one else was prepared to go near the money needed to sign him. He is staying because Barca are offering the most money. The fact that Barca can't even afford the amount they are offering him does not bother him in the slightest. Pure greed.}

16 Jul 2021 12:31:19
Ed001, absolutely. Pure greed. The thing that sticks in my throat or at least would if I was a Barcelona fan is when Messi says how much he loves the club etc.

All he's done thoughout his entire career is bend them over a barrel and demanded more money, or specific signings, for managers to be sacked etc.

I'm pretty sure this 5 year deal that would take him until his 39th birthday is just a ploy to get around Barcelona's tricky financial issues in terms of the wage bill.

Like I said I expect him to stay for 2 more years then Barcelona will pay up the rest of his deal and he'll leave. Thus he'll get paid for 5 years but only work for 2. So it's not a 50% reduction in wages at all, it would actually equate to a 25% increase if it works out as I expect.

{Ed001's Note - I wouldn't be surprised.}

17 Jul 2021 15:19:28
I've read similar Shappy and you make some great points.

It's mad to think he looks like he'll be paid by Barcelona to play in the MLS in a few years one way or another.

I do think Barcelona have a good team coming together and there's a rumour Pep could be back in a year or two.

17 Jul 2021 19:35:44
I could see Pep heading back once Messi leaves.

Barcelona will need a lift and bringing Pep back will appease fans.

They have some good young players like Fati, Pedri and Frenkie De Jong. On the flip side however they need a striker and the whole defence needs rebuilding as well as another first choice midfielder to go with Pedri and De Jong.

18 Jul 2021 21:57:44
Do you think they might take Fred?

20 Jul 2021 11:13:00
Barcelona have a good team coming together? Really? Take messi out of that team and it is distinctly average. A declining Aguero, cock of the walk Depay, no defence whatsoever, an aging busquets. They have De Jong and Pedri. Fati may come good. The rest? Can’t really say any of the rest are anything to fear. Dembele is never fit, coutinho is on his way out, they got rid of suarez who yet again proved himself to be the best striker in la liga. Griezmann I don’t think I can say I’ve seen him play one outstanding game for Barcelona yet and they’re willing to get rid. Same goes for Pjanic.

13 Jul 2021 12:02:08
Point taken Ed001. Perhaps the language and the tone came out as undermining to Rashford's off field work. I am in no way disrespecting the work he has done or still doing. I apologise if it came out that way.

My original post on which i was called all these things had nothing to do with charity work that Rashford does. It was a simple one liner stating the fact that Rashford had missed a penalty. May be i saw it wrong and he didn't miss it else i wouldn't be labelled all those things.

This post again was a dig at RedWhiskey who without knowing who i am was making a statement out of line regarding what i can achieve. If he knew me and then made that statement, its fine and perhaps his standards of achievements are Bill Gates or Jack Ma but there is that level just below too. He doesn't know how much or at what level i am doing my work so he shouldn't be making such statements. But i should be the bigger man and not take note of such foolish accusations.

I apologise to everyone.

{Ed001's Note - you did come across as if you were denigrating the lad for what he does off the pitch, I know it can be difficult in text alone to get over the meaning you intent though, so no worries. Everyone can hopefully move on and talk about real football now and not that international dross!}

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13 Jul 2021 12:36:59
UA your post came over horribly, and in all honesty my reaction to that post in stating he’s done more than you ever will is quite simply alluding to the fact that that young man carried the nations children on his shoulders, kept them fed and forced the government to backtrack. This in itself is a great achievement morally, for himself and for the country. I am in no doubt that you achieve and handle things in your life yourself however you see fit. But at the time I was seething that the context in which you posted tried to denigrate from what this young man has done (or should I seemed that way), he has used his massive platform to the benefit of everyone who looks up to him.

If I caused offence then I do apologise, tensions were understandably running high…however for me helping the next generation of kids to be fed is one of the most heartwarming and selfless things I have seen anybody of his status do. And I will not apologise for supporting that, or thinking that in its own right most likely contributed more to our society in these hard times than not only yourself, but myself and most of the country.

Nevertheless I can see your qualms with my reactionary words and I would like to offer my apology to any offence.

13 Jul 2021 13:46:03
It takes a big man to accept he is wrong and apologise so apology accepted.

FWIW I do not think Rashford does his charity work to 'show off', he doesn't need to, he just understands what it is like to be worse off and appreciates what he has. Whether you think he is great at football (I do, though Marcus admits himself he had a tough season) or think he can't hit a barn door and scuffs in one every 10 shots (your words I believe) I think we can all agree that what he does for other people and the way he handles himself is exemplary and should be respected and we should be glad to have someone like that at our club and support him even in his worst times.

13 Jul 2021 15:15:04
Can't agree more GDS2.

15 Jul 2021 00:25:27
Hat tipped to all.

What started out like a school yard row has ended like real men shaking hands and building a bridge.

It's been a while since I seen that happen so cheers to everyone for being a man about things

Now back to the footy.

12 Jul 2021 18:47:33
Will Jorginho get any stick next season to the extent that Rooney, Ronald and Beckham have received in the past?

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12 Jul 2021 23:40:35
Why should he? For that bad foul? He was unlucky with it. It was not a great challenge but his foot came off the ball onto his leg. It was studs up but slow motion made it look worse as did grealish who was fine but tried to make out he was hurt.
Or for missing a pen?
Will Harry maguire get stick for holding his face when never kicked? Did you notice that one?
There are a dozen idiotic moments in every game but imo what goes on during a game should be forgotten after it. Var agreed with ref it was a yellow and no more. In epl he gets a red because they read slow motion and are bad refa.

13 Jul 2021 00:41:42
Ken, not like you to be first to reply to my post with no understanding of my point. My point is that Rooney, Ronaldo and Beckham got sickening abuse for a lot less. And Jorginho did mean it, certainly skillfull enough to roll his foot past the ball, he deliberately made sure he got the smallest of touches on the ball as Grealish was already grounded, too good an opportunity to miss. Why do you think Jorginho feined his injury immediately? Chielini on Saka? A spear tackle is banned in Rugby. Yanking someone at the neck area and pulling someone to the ground potentially causing a head/ neck injury is a banning offence. I supposed you missed the back of Saka's head hitting the ground and it looked worse because we do slow motion?

13 Jul 2021 07:23:54
The rules are in need of reform. When you grab someone’s shirt like that it is a cynical professional foul and you should be off. Personally I would like to see a booking every time a player grabs a shirt in any situation, it’s got completely out of hand.

13 Jul 2021 07:52:43
Ken it's already been a red card offence in the euros and we've seen it all season. If you follow through with your studs, reckless, dangerous, then it's a red. And you can't just forget what happens in a game otherwise you wouldn't get advances in rule changes. I'm sure Grealish was fine, it's still a red all day. How is Jorginho lying on the ground after? Outright cheating and dangerous at the same time. No one outside England wanted us to win the Euros especially after an all English CL final. Had Grealish committed that foul on Jorginho I'm certain it would be a red and you'd probably say it was red. Still England losing will keep the remainers happy in their misery as they will say it's some sort of bad karma lol.

13 Jul 2021 09:56:01
I'm with Ken, looks like his foot slides of the ball onto Grealish's leg, who then rolls about as if he'd been shot, only to get up without even a slight limb a few seconds later.

13 Jul 2021 11:18:41
If people look with the bias shown above you have no chance of being objective.
He wanted the Danish captain hung drawn and quartered for holding his face but ignores sterling and maguire doing the same.
Always looking to blame someone else our supasub and looking for excuses. Beaten by a better team it happens move on.
Do you think jorginho should be abused next season supa? Is that what you want?

13 Jul 2021 11:32:21
Ah I get it. Grealish who was almost static on the ground should have received a yellow for over reaction? Neither of you mentioned Jorginho going down injured? It's a deliberate stamp on the knee, wow some people either aren't very bright or just very naive, or maybe not played the game very much like some referees. Fortunately some professionals in the game still consider it dangerous play and a clear red. Maybe if Grealish had damaged some ligaments in his knee you'd upgrade it? It was cut up? That was reported somewhere after the game. Also Anyone who's played football would know that what Jorginho did was deliberate, controlling a football using a stamping movement whilst someone has there legs planted/ grounded. Then they immediately go down injured. Maybe give Grealish a red for a 2 footed challenge on Jorginho lol.

13 Jul 2021 13:02:35
I didn't say Grealish should have got a yellow, just that the challenge itself was accidental. I imagine catching the ball wrong then the foot hitting something solid is enough to cause pain, although he likely simulated tonan extent too. Something does need to be done about overreacting, it's football, not theatre.

Aye Ken, nothing to be done about that. England has the habbit of both being sore losers and bad winners, it's quite a feat.

13 Jul 2021 13:54:14
Ken my post is nothing to do with play acting or face holding which we've seen nearly every game which I can't stand. You've brought that up. It's about dangerous/ reckless play. Ronaldo got and still gets stick for wink. Rooney got loads, Beckham got a burning effigy for a sending off made worse by play acting. Point being the worst abuse appears to be directed at Manchester United players. Faces holding is a different discussion all together and to search the history of my posts shows how you want yo prove a point which refers to nothing I put in my post. Maybe you just don't like Grealish? So it's just a yellow.

13 Jul 2021 16:17:51
It wasn't a red imo. Its as simple as that. It was in no way deliberate to catch him where he did.
I think grealish made a meal of it but there is nothing unusual in that. He moved on without a limp.
What stick does ronaldo get today for that wink 13 years or more ago? Tell me about all the stick he still endures today for that wink🤣🤣🤣
Beckham is a national treasure for heavans sake. He took dogs abuse for a bit and fought back.
Abuse is not solely for united players. Players from all clubs get abused from time to time.
So do you think jorginho should be abused? is that what you want to happen? Will it make you happy and give you a warm fuzzy feeling?

13 Jul 2021 16:35:25
Where have I said I want him to get abuse? You have a habit of just creating things from your imagination Ken when replying to my posts. Just to run it by you again the original question was : Will Jorginho get any stick next season to the extent that Rooney, Ronaldo and Beckham have received in the past? You've in the meantime tried to gang up with another poster, brought something about face holding in the Danish game and being hung, drawn and quartered after going through my previous posts. I don't remember saying anything about action needing to be taken against the Danish player again your just making stuff up to suit your arguement which had no relevance to my question above or dangerous play. A Swedish player was sent off for the same thing against Ukraine accidental or deliberate it's still a red regardless of Grealishes reaction, (yet still nothing about Jorginho going down injured after trying to control a ball using a stamping movement studs up? ), you love to just make a lot about Grealish which I don't get. Emojis? My kids like using those. I guess we disagree. Yet I still think Manchester United players get worse abuse. You've offered no examples where that isn't the case despite several attempts.

13 Jul 2021 17:15:57
Grealish took a full set of studs to the upper knee and inner thigh at pace. Are some of you seriously suggesting that he wasn't in real pain after that

Sure, he was hurt not injured, but suggesting he was faking the pain is ridiculous IMO.

An inch or so lower and it would have been injury too, possibly a serious one.

13 Jul 2021 17:52:35
Supa you are very aggressive.
I've simply asked a question do you want jorginho to be abused?
If not why wonder if he will be?
You still have not answered the question.
I've not said he faked being hurt I said I thought he made a meal of it. I'm sure it was sore for 90 seconds or so .
You are so bias you genuinely believe united players are persecuted more than others.
I don't think that's the case at all.
Maybe Ronaldo stopped getting stick when he stopped playing for united I don't think so.
Suarez gets more sick than any united player.
Terry got more. Ozil got more.
Your just a little bit of a cry baby always looking to point a finger or play the persecuted card.
All the refs on the night none of them saw red.
After the danish game you were moaning about them but you can't see the english players making the same offences. Your completely biased. Changer your name to wenger.

13 Jul 2021 18:13:44
Aggressive? Your starting to try and make this personal against me now. Calling me a bit of a cry baby? Of course I don't want any players to get any abuse and I don't recall ever posting that. I've already said I can't stand face holding/ play acting further up Ken. That answers your questions for you without having to resort to name calling. I mentioned the players Rooney, Ronaldo and Beckham based on Euros/ world cups even playing for their international team. Your bringing up players based on things on and off the pitch for their clubs. Maradona got a fair bit of stick too for hand of god. Persecuted? Made a meal of it? Accidental or not it's a red all day. I don't understand why you have to attack me personally calling me aggressive just to prove your point. Still I look forward to games I can watch where 22 players on the pitch can attack the ball studs up, follow through on the knee and get 22 yellows potentially. I wish I could get another poster to disagree with me who can actually have a discussion without making it personal. And Wenger was a top manager by the way. Don't understand what myself and the persecution has to do with any of it. Maybe change yours to naive?

13 Jul 2021 18:42:12
Serious question Ken. Are you English?

13 Jul 2021 19:35:54
Thorne, I'd say a few inches higher and you'd have seen him in real pain😂

It's simple, the Italians left a few boots in, commited professional fouls, pulled shirts, feigned injury and dived.


It's a part of the game, not a part anyone particularly likes but a part all the same.

The important thing to understand is that nothing the Italian's did that many would consider underhand if not cheating actually effected the outcome of the game.

They didn't win a contentious penalty, or get a player sent off. They didn't score from a free kick that shouldn't have been given.

Italy won because they played better, they got their tactics right and they deserved it.

England played well enough, but got several key decisions wrong and that probably cost us the tournament.

Not being ambitious enough to go for the second goal in the first half was a tactical error by England.

Not changing system at halftime when it was clear Italy had worked us out and was starting to get into the game was a tactical mistake by England.

We played the wrong subs at the wrong time, which again was a mistake by England.

While the choices for who and in what order the penalties were taken was again a tactical error by England.

Those are the things that cost England the win, and not the gamesmanship of the Italians.

Trying to blame the Italians for what was simply errors and not being good enough is a big part of why England fans have such a bad reputation around the world.

13 Jul 2021 20:14:35
Thanks Shappy for going to the effort as always but I think your post would benefit a new thread somewhere to give it relevance. My post was initially about Jorginho' accidental studs up tackle on Grealish, which imo is a red all day, accidentental or deliberate and a players reaction I think is irrelevant when it comes to dangerous play. There are some journalists even questioning Chielini's last minute shirt pull backwards at the neck when even potentially being the last man also. It's an absolute masterpiece of shirt pulling when he could have grabbed any other part of the body. I agree with most of what you say in your post but maybe it's a bit of a different subject/ discussion? Especially about English fans. There are worse fans out there than the English.

13 Jul 2021 22:39:56
Jorginiho would be a harsh red/ lucky yellow. Cheilini same harsh red/ lucky yellow. Truth is its all down to the ref/ VAR you see all sorts of crazy decisions hence the disagreements on here.

14 Jul 2021 14:48:04
Ken demanding I answer his question which I did but can't himself answer a simple one. Probably Scottish, Irish or Welsh which would explain the anger.

14 Jul 2021 17:59:37
I'm not English.

14 Jul 2021 19:06:51
I rest my case. Anti English regardless. Explains digging out Grealish repeatedly.

15 Jul 2021 09:29:46
What case supa?
You in a courtroom drama? Funny boy🤣.

15 Jul 2021 09:34:51
Having met Ken personally I wouldn't say he's anti-English, just anti-eejit. he has very little time or patience for fools.

Which will put him at odds with those small minded antisocial, England fan morons.

I am English, and I have spent time abroad during international tournaments and so many times I've seen England fans behaving in a way that frankly makes me ashamed to be English.
The English fans seem unable to separate football from politics, easily sucked into a patriotic stupor that with their low level of intellect only results in racial or prejudice laded slurs. Calling the French frogs or the Germans krauts. It's why German and Argentina (the last two countries we had a war with) are considered our biggest opponents. its the ugly side of football, and the English fans have a well earned reputation for bringing it out. We are boastful and arrogant despite only ever making it to two finals.

The lyrics of the song "football's coming home" were written in respect to us holding a tournament. All it ever meant was a celebration of an international football tournament is being played in England. Yet over the years that has been twisted as we invented football and we have some sort of ownership right to it. Like winning a tournament an bringing the trophy back is akin to some sort of holy crusade. They've taken football away from us and now we are going out to capture it and bring it back home.

You hear it in the language from pundits, talking about fouls, diving, cheating etc as if we are better and above that, we have had our chances stolen from us through cheating.

England lost to an Italian side who during the tournament and on the day was better than us in every aspect of the game. Yet we lost because Kane didn't get a penalty, or because Jorginho and Chiellini weren't sent off. It was because the Italians cheated us and used the "dark arts". Which of course is bollocks, they were just better than us.

If England fans want respect around the world then they need to show some respect and humility.

15 Jul 2021 10:25:16
Of course shappy while supporting was getting 'his case together' he missed me tipping England some months ago and my posts hoping that they would win.
I'm not anti grealish I think he is good at playing football but that doesn't diminish the fact that it was not a red card imo or coincidently in the view of the on snd off pitch referees. But supa knows best i'd say supa knows naff all really.
Keep to your stereotyping supa.
I'm sure England is proud of you and your views.

15 Jul 2021 12:16:07
To be fair Ken did. Also I sent him a "it's coming home" joke video before the final and his response was "fingers crossed". So certainly no anti-English sentiment from him in my opinion.

15 Jul 2021 18:01:05
I don't know Ken, stereotypes? I generally want other UK countries to do well in tournaments. Casting judgement on me based on a football posting site is a little narrow minded yourself. I haven't consulted the rest of the nation about that potential red by Jorginho (or Chielini for that matter) that was a yellow, maybe I will next time in my address to the nation when I've stopped drinking Gravy, smashing up opposing fans, telling everyone around me I'm better than them whilst singing it's coming home, (see what I did ther) . There is arrogance and disgusting behaviour amongst a lot of historic European football countries both at club and international level Shappy. It's not just the English having been abroad myself for football including my other home nation. I don't have any opinion other than that in any of the thread. English fans will probably see some of the decisions one way, and other nationalities will probably see it another.

15 Jul 2021 19:18:18
Supa I've been to world cups and euro championships supporting Ireland in euro 88 wc90 as we were in same groups as england and had great times with English fans I've been all over Europe with united fans and with other clubs fans and had great nights.
I've also seen the worst at close quarters.
Right across Europe there is regular violence at club level on a bigger scale than England. But that's not the only reason neutrals were up for Italy i'm sure
I don't tar everybody with the one brush.
The idiots are imo only using being a football fan as a cover to be violent they are not football fans that's for sure.

Of course most neutrals were up for Italy which is unusual as mostly neutrals want the underdogs to win but because it was England that were underdogs the vast majority of people wanted Italy to win. I don't think it had anything to do with the dislike of the team or manager its just that for some reason England don't really attract much support from neutrals in my experience. Which is understandable.
. What I can't stand is people who constantly whinge and moan about referee decisions or with a woe is me mentality saying English or united players get less than a fair share of decisions or breaks that they are treated differently.
Those People who are always looking for excuses pointing to incidents where the opposition did this that or the other. Then turning a blind eye to English or united players doing pretty much the same thing. Bias takes objectivity out of a lot of folk. We all have blind spots admittedly. But when a game is over its over.
Nobody cheated england. All the referees on the night felt it wasn't a red card I'd agree. Why anybody would wonder if Jorginho will get the level of abuse that Beckham got (which was disgusting) is a mentality I don't understand. Its a common mentality among the people who abused the English players after they lost. i'm not sure what thought process brought you to even wonder that. That's why I asked you do you want him to get that level of abuse.
I just don't understand why people think like that.

By the way if you make a comment like 'Probably Scottish, Irish or Welsh which would explain the anger' that's stereotyping.
No anger in me at all in this thread I was disappointed to read what you wrote and questioned it and asked why you notice Danish player feigning injury when you don't call out your own players for the same thing.
Comments like england losing will keep the remainers happy will cause people to question your thought process. You come across to me as Someone with a persecution complex. Looking to blame outside influences for effecting the results. A ref or a fouler or a diver whatever.
I'm not someone who ever looked for opponents to be booked or sent off and moaning afterwards when they're not becuse in every game there will be incidents like that and you win some you lose some.

15 Jul 2021 20:33:06
It's a little self righteous Ken to say I'm of a mentality for just asking a question in relation to one incident which despite whatever referees you've heard some also said it was potentially serious foul play, even Chielini's. Where a foul can cause injury to an opponent. Both players reactions are irrelevant. They are just decisions that go for or against. Calling me arrogant, summarising my mentality, whilst we get war and peace from Shappy on something I didn't even bring up, by the way politicizing a tackle and a thread about an Italian player and an English player, then bringing up the Falklands and the World war, when I have more than a few relatives who served in both and the unspeakable things that happened in both is very distasteful to say the least. Football doesn't even enter my mind when those are mentioned. There will always be a minority. Ask Tottenham fans when they play away anywhere in Europe. Russian fans, Rangers/ Celtic fans, Italians, Dutch, Eastern block, pretty much all countries. I'm not on social media which now has a lot to answer for and seems to be the main part of the problem. To ask a question isn't a crime on a discussions page. Maybe a need to word it better when I post things again but I'm not posting for an editor in a newspaper nor am I trying to get an open university qualification in the English language and grammar. I purely felt that people might get the question more from a perspective of devils advocate based on what I've witnessed before particularly towards Manchester United players past and present. If the question is too sensitive to answer then don't answer it. If it where on social media or in the political spotlight what I've witnessed for just posting a question feels like a smear campaign. Hopefully as best I can convey that makes sense, but if it doesn't then I'm not that bothered apart from I've been here (alot less the last few years) since it was literally 1 page, probably around 2001/ 2002ish and it would be rude of me not too.

16 Jul 2021 09:25:51
Smear campaign by 1 🤣 i'd say its more of a disagreement.
However if you continue to stereotype like you did above a smear campaign would not be required as you will be smearing your own reputation.

16 Jul 2021 10:42:42
Stereotyping is just simple generalisation/ prejudice, it's not a crime Ken. Gaslighting is something completely different.

16 Jul 2021 12:27:43
No its not a legal crime in a lot of cases but it is a moral one its as you say a prejudice. It shows a huge amount of ignorance and is very unpleasant.
In the workplace it would be grounds for dismissal. Thankfully the world is changing and tolerance for people that show such prejudice is waining.

16 Jul 2021 15:33:56
Not in my workplace Ken but different punishments for different offences a bit like the thread.

Still I'm not going to spend too much time wiping my eyes dry, checking in with the psychologist about my mental state and my moral compass whilst my phsycologist takes things every so seriously whilst they are replying with laughing and insulting emojis but then getting ever so serious again and bringing up random things apart from the one question, twisting wording along the way.

My phsycologist would be struck off for gaslighting. It seems an offense has been committed with my very 1st post committing a foul and posters have gone down holding their face if I were to put it into an analogy.

12 Jul 2021 18:09:11
Say a word against the Golden Boy and one becomes Classless/ Joker/ Pathetic/ Pot/ Saddo. what's a saddo by the way, sorry i haven't used that before.

But everyone is allowed to have a go at Maguire, Pogba, Fred, Lindelof, James without being called all these things.

RedWhiskey, do you know me personally? Have you met me, seen my work? Why do you have to judge me if i can do what Rashford has done? Not everyone is a daily wage earning peasant. Just because Rashford uses his PR to publicize what he has done doesn't mean he is the only one. Most people don't like to showcase their charity work. Many are filthy rich to even care if they donate more than what Rashford has done without showing off.


One of the posters is simply too stupid to even mention the name, thinks of himself as the gods without the o. If you think i am a joker, why bother replying? Simply move on.

{Ed001's Note - showing off? You mean raising awareness for a cause he cares about rather than just giving money away as a tax break is now showing off? That is just showing how little you understand the lad. It is not because you are having a go at Rashford you are being called these things, it is because of the classless, nasty tone of your posts aimed at a lad that does not deserve to be vilified.}

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12 Jul 2021 20:31:19
United_Addict, if you can't see the difference between what you post about Rashford and what many posters say about other United players who they think aren't good enough then sadly we are wasting our time on you.

Rashford first and foremost is a very good player, potentially a top top player. Is he overhyped? Maybe, but them he wouldn't be the only one.

Yet moving his footballing ability to one side and focus on his charity work. He is an example and a player we as United supporters should be proud of. He has used his voice, his time and his energy into making a real difference to kids right at the bottom of our society. He was there once, he knows what an empty stomach feels like and he has done what he can to make sure other kids don't suffer as he did. Kudos to him. He deserves all the plaudits he gets for that.

Sure he could have dug into his own pocket, write the money off against his taxes and said nothing. But that wouldn't have made the issue front page news, that wouldn't have forced a governments hand and make real change. I'm sure he gives plenty of his own money away as well. I know he sent a young kid an Xbox or PlayStation as a thanks to him for the charity work that kid did after being inspired by Rashford.

For me the old complaint I can level against Rashford is his insistence on trying to patch himself up and keep playing through the pain barrier rather than take care of his body as he should. It has caught up with him and that has impacted his form. Ankle, shoulder and back injuries. He needs to have the operations he needs and the rest required to let his body heal.

If he's the golden boy in some fans eyes it is because he has earned it.

If he makes you feel inadequate then that's on you.

12 Jul 2021 23:25:54
Can we try to have reasoned debate without resorting to aggressive statements and responses?

It seems to me that with all the freedom we have to express our views we have lost sight of what's important in life.

Firstly England lost a football match. A game. Yes an important one but not something which should ever lead to the vitriol that we have seen and read about.

Secondly surely one of the things that made these matches so enjoyable was the camaraderie of Southgate his staff and players which led to a unifying effect amongst the whole country. The whole country was on a huge high until late last night. That should be the legacy of the Euros for us all. Not the bitter sniping seen on here and not those who crashed wembley, nor the racists who have tried to sow discord.

So yes we can debate, yes we can voice strong dissenting opinions but let's do it with respect.

13 Jul 2021 00:07:24
UA. Whatever you may think of rashes as a player and you and I disagree on that as I think he is a very good player with the potential to be a top class player.
I don't see how he can get any criticism for his charity work. I tip my hat to him as I do all others who give their time and money to charitable causes. There are lots of great foundations set up and funded by people that want to give back. Some get notation
Notoriety some don't some seek it some don't some use their Notoriety to bring a focus to their cause not for themselves.
He is a footballing Greta, or Bob geldof, or lenny Henry.
I'm proud of him as a human i'm proud he represents my club despite missing than penalty last night a fate that has been endured by Ronaldo messi bagio Bergkamp Beckham Figo Maradona before him he will be cheered off every pitch in the country next season and rightly so.
Don't let your dislike of him as a player cloud your judgement of his charity work or question his reasons for same.
On the playing side he had a great 1st half of season and a poor 2nd half. I thought he was managed badly if injured he should have been taken out and had his surgery or rest. He was also moved inexplicably from his best position and shunted around the forward line and lost confidence.
He is made of the right stuff and will come back hopefully fit and ready to play on the left again.

13 Jul 2021 03:00:32
I'm with Salford7 on this I'm afraid. This is a banter and rumour page for fans to write how they feel about their favourite game. It is and must not be a place for derogatory remarks and replies towards other users which happens a lot. They say regular posters because others won't post over fear of the response. It's a game nobody died pick up your toys and move on.

13 Jul 2021 06:29:09
UA exactly the wrong mindset to have. If you do something good spread your story around so that it inspires others to do the same. All that matters is your intentions are right.

I absolutely don't care if someone is doing good for others even if it is for their own publicity. And remember the lad is at one of the biggest clubs in the world and highly regarded so anything he does finds its way into the media anyhow so he really doesn't need publicity.

Most would love to do what Rashford has done in his early 20s and he certainly is an inspiration to the younger generation and we need more people like him who care.

I know there are people around the world who do charity and don't get noticed or are not in the spotlight but we also need people spreading the word around to bring awareness and to inspire others in the community.

Every player gets criticized (some more so than others) but it's a shame that you try to undermine their good work for the sake of criticizing.

13 Jul 2021 07:27:26
As a wise man once said, when you’re in a hole, stop digging. I apologise for calling you a plant pot but your original post was so off the mark. You seem to have a personal vendetta against Rashford. It’s ok to criticise his form, I have done that several times myself but you made it very personal, which was unnecessary and wholly inaccurate. As Tris said, the tone of your posts is the issue.

13 Jul 2021 07:32:07
UA's post again shows lack of class.
Belittling others off the pitch work is genuinely pathetic.

As a United fan, we should be supporting the young lad rather than bashing out at every opportunity.
Utterly shameful from a United supporter.

13 Jul 2021 11:29:59
I definitely do not think i am a God, far from it, and thank you for calling me stupid, whilst a little odd, doesn't surprise me.

I wish this post was you understanding the reasons why you got the response you got to your original post though, when you are the only one with a certain opinion it's sometimes time to take a step back and maybe reassess. The fact you have just doubled down means I cannot take back calling your post a joke, as this one is just as bad in my opinion.

12 Jul 2021 14:17:05
To my English friends, you conceded only 2, scored 11 (I think) are unbeaten in the tournament and I think gained a lot of respect from neutrals like myself. The team and manager are a likeable group and conduct themselves impeccably. I think this team has no inferiority to the Spain, France, Germany or any team. To lose on penalties must be hard but I think there will be more finals.

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12 Jul 2021 23:54:31
Merci Remi.

12 Jul 2021 13:37:46
Hard Luck England. And I'm devastated for MR and JS.

Hendo should of stayed on the pitch as well as MM St the behest of DR and Philips. I don't think JS touched the ball before his spot kick.
My star 5 peno takers were Kane, RS, MM, JH, Mr and since RS couldn't take one HM scored a beauty.

Now good was awarded best keeper etc but big shout out to Pickford and just wow. He could not have done any better and was the better keeper by far

MR sent good the wrong way and JS and BS hit the ball at a perfect height and moderate speed that most keepers would have saved. I asked myself would good have saved Jorginho spot kick and I got to say not a chance as he lept almost instantly each time where as JP waited and waited. If England had won I doubt good would have received that award.

On a sour note I don't think England will host another tournament for a while after the scenes on Social media TBH.

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12 Jul 2021 16:19:07
You should get a job writing the script for a line of duty with all those initial acronym's🤣.

12 Jul 2021 18:41:26
Who is GOOD?

13 Jul 2021 02:47:12

13 Jul 2021 07:30:22
Henderson for a penalty? He has the balls but perhaps not the technique. I don’t know what Southgate was thinking picking Saka. Kane, Grealish, Rashford, Sancho, Mount, Pickford, Trippier. The subs should have come in earlier and he’d have to have taken others off but those players would have been top of my list. As for Maguire, who knew?

12 Jul 2021 00:21:42
The England team played their hearts out. They and Southgate gave football back tonis fans. They deserve our thanks

What i would also say is that we will do them a disservice if we big them up for the World Cup. They just had a very favourable draw and were at home which is a huge advantage. The reality is that they failed to win againat rhe first eeallt good team they met.

The running power and athleticism they possess will not be so important in the heat of Qatar. It will be impossible to run like that for 90 mins in 35c heat. There possession will be most important and the ability to create chances with quick bursts of play. We need better midfielders who can control the tempo of games.

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12 Jul 2021 10:59:37
I think that’s slightly harsh Salford. We conceded 2 goals on the whole tournament and had the lowest expected goals against. We have some great players, Gareth needs to take the shackles off and allow them to play, the team did a great job but it did always seem to be safety first.

Italy are unbeaten for 34 games, one behind the record so they are a top top team. Germany are no mugs, Croatia are getting old but still a decent team, and Denmark found some form. We can only beat who is in front of us and yes, the draw did put most of the other fancied teams in the either half of the draw, but I suspect most of them will not have wanted to play England.

As for Qatar, are they not playing the matched in air conditioned stadiums?

12 Jul 2021 12:33:25
I don't get this "who did England beat" stick used to lessen the achievements of the England national team.

They beat everyone they needed to beat to get to the final.

They lost the final on penalties to arguably the best side in the world on current form. With a shade more luck or more courage from the manager then they may have beaten them.

When France won the world cup did they beat all of Brazil, Argentina, Spain, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Italy, England and Portugal?

No. These tournaments are set up in such as way that you play 3 group games (which are generally seeded and is designed to try and keep the best sides apart as much as possible) . You then play 3 knockout rounds before the final. The first knockout round will pit the winners of a group against the runners up of another. Again designed to keep the top sides apart as much as possible.
Then you have the quarter finals, the first real chance normally of coming up against a side with a genuine chance of winning the tournament. Get through that then you have the semi and the final where you'll likely play a top side.

Most teams win these tournaments playing 2-3 top sides at most.

Italy won the tournament and they are deserved winners. But they played Turkey, Wales, Switzerland and Austria in their first 4 games. Followed by Belgium in the Quarters, and Spain in the Semi's.

They didn't play Germany, France, Portugal or the Netherlands.

12 Jul 2021 15:24:05
England have had it easy the last 2 major tournaments, Germany aside the routes have been pretty straight forward for England to get to finals, plus basically home advantage the entirety of this tournament, a missed opportunity I feel as I doubt you'll get another major with such kind routes.

13 Jul 2021 19:03:12
Shappy Germany are not a patch on their world cup winning team. Croatia have regressed since the last world cup. Denmark are solid but nowhere near a great team.

Other teams like France and Belgium did not play their best. Spain lack a proper centre forward but almost beat Italy.

When it comes to Qatar we need players in midfield especially who keep hold of the ball and are inventive. I hope Rice matures and Bellingham too but we have no obvious dominant players like Verrati Jorgino and Insigne at the moment. We lost the midfield battle and thereby the game.

Also as good as Southgate has undoubtedly done unless he becomes more tactfully astute we will never win a tournament with him. From about the 20th minute of the 1st half things turned in the Italians favour yet Southgate did nothing positive. He has to learn that the best managers make things happen.

Listening to the criticism he has got for not eg playing Grealish earlier perhaps that betrays the lack of confidence he had in him defensively but more importantly it showed he knew our midfield and defence was not good enough to stand toe to toe with the opposition. We needed leaders in midfield and players with experience.

Lastly common sense tells you that a game based on running power is not enough to win in an hot climate. The heat and humidity will make all matches hard work.

It will be interesting to see how Southgates team plays in the next 6 months or so. He is an intelligent man so let's hope he too matures and changes the tactics to suit the occasions coming up.


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