Manchester United Banter Archive August 07 2014

07 Aug 2014 22:44:36
Who would be happy if the final signing were, Vermaelen, Blind, De Jong and Cuardo? With Herrera and Shaw, youth and the current team. I think that's a title pushing team.

stu

I'd be very happy but I have my heart set on Vidal lol

It's an odd situation really. I think most would be happy (although I really don't think Blind is good enough) were it not for the fact that Ed has come out talking record transfer fees and we've been linked heavily with Vidal and Hummels throughout the summer.

It would be our best window in a long while regardless.

Not really sure blind is needed. he's a good left wing back but we have shaw, young and James who can play there. Think shaw is better than blind and James will be. Young is working like a dog to try to stay in the team. And blind isn't good enough to play in our midfield, he's a jack of all trades kind of player and we need someone who can cement their place in the team. A solid midfielder, a strong influential centre back and possibly a new right wing back. If we could finish the summer with Vidal, hummels and cuadrado I would be absolutely ecstatic. If we can't get our main targets then the back ups should be de Jong/ carvalho, vermaelen/ benatia, dani Alves.

07 Aug 2014 21:45:59
Vermaelen Cuadrado Vidal Blind are looking more likely now I don't really mind

Blind is going to Italy and not us.

07 Aug 2014 19:46:31
I see posts that say three or four names that say they would be good for us. Often one or more, even all of them on occasion are not better than what we have. LvG has indicated we will not buy for buying sake, he is also ambitious, he wants first, not top four. He will want the Champions League the year after. I don't think people understand if they are not one or have not worked with highly flying driven people, second is not acceptable.
I wonder if people have got used to low level buying after years of the Glazers and SAF who rarely pushed the boat out or pushed the Glazers to spend heavily. It is one of the reasons we only have 3 European cups not more, a lack of ambition at the very highest level combined with stubbornness to change.
This window needs to be a game changer, it may not make us the finished article, that may take the next two windows to do that, but it needs to give LvG the armoury to have a chance at No1 spot. Mr Woodward has proclaimed we have loads so let's use it properly, spend it on top players not more ordinary squad ones.

I see people saying we have no chance of him, being a top player, well, if the club is ambitious and seriously wants to give LvG the chance then it's Hummels, Vermaelen, Reus or Di-Maria and Vidal or Khedira, that standard. The buys will tell us the ambition and ordinary players will leave us fighting for a top four place not the top one. No more excuses for Woodward this time so start having ambition and stop accepting also rans as a good window, we the fans deserve a great window. Demand it

Blind.
That about sums it up

07 Aug 2014 20:54:29
Good post Red Man. We have not won enough in Europe because of a lack of ambition. This window will reveal how ambitious we really are under LVG.

Great post Red Man, agree on almost every point. We have a great manager who wants to win, so we need great players to give him that chance. Hummels or Benatia, Vidal or Khedira, and Di Maria or Reus would be absolutely perfect. Not as though we don't have the money, as a certain chairman is all too happy to point out to any potential selling clubs.

Agreed, except in one respect. I don't think SAF ever suffered from a lack of ambition. To me it was more that his tactics were great for the English game but were not adapted for Europe. Let's face it even the two we did win under his management were hardly stunning victories. A lucky victory on penalties against Chelsea when Terry slipped, and a last gasp win against Bayern who completely dominated us for 89 minutes during the treble season. By the end of his reign that deficiency had become a chasm and I really don't think he had the faintest idea how to fix that.

I do seem to remember in the documentary about George Best that he made the same criticism about United's and Busby's lack of ambition to go back and win it again after that first victory in1968.

07 Aug 2014 22:03:41
There is some value to what you are saying red man, but if just buying world class players guaranteed you success then real madrids galacticos would not have won so little in Europe over the last 10-15 years. Good teams built with balance in mind do well. A few seasons ago when Dortmund were beating barren they were made up of players most of use had not heard of. Don't get me wrong, I want Vidal, I want hummels and I pray from reus. But we also need squad players to improve the whole and do grunt work.

Huggy

We have squad players and one or two from the youth coming through but the first team lacks quality in certain areas. That is where we need to buy top quality.

Peashooter
Actually I would look back at 99 and we didn't buy that summer in a position of strength, we failed to build on that triumph when SAF said we were good enough but we then declined. Then when Ronaldo left after two Euro finals SAF didn't invest properly, the result was a decline in standards. I think SAF's tactics in Europe were not great but he failed to build on a winning team, twice. He was very much a team spirit ethos which you need but you also need quality.
Woodward must deliver and it is even more important as right now we are not in the position of strength we once were.

Obviously we should be ambitious, but I think you are confusing where we currently stand in the game with where we should be.

1. We are not as appealing as some other clubs because we don't have CL football at the moment - "but we are Man Utd" doesn't have the same power it had 5 years ago.

2. We also have a new manager who has divided a lot of opinion. Yes we need a confident, intelligent and experienced manager like LVG. But don't forget he has rattled a lot of cages in his time and some players will be advised against a move because of his "ruthlessness" and the way he plays may not suit the way they want to play. Some players won't like the idea of having their every move and facial expression scrutinised in training for example.

3. A great deal of other clubs have enough money to buy the same players we want and to pay their wages. We are not going to pay Hummels (for example) much more than Barcelona would from a business perspective. We talk the talk but we find it hard to walk the walk.

4. World Class players are not easy to buy from top class clubs like Juventus & Dortmund. Dortmund let Lewandowski run down his contract they would do the same with Reus, Hummels, Gundongan etc if they don't want to sell.

5. We have a lot of mediocre players at the minute. If you were Vidal would you rather play in a Bayern team or Man Utd team? They won't necessarily buy into this "we are going to build a team around you" line, because the manager could be sacked in 6 months, (Moyes-Fellaini).

6. We have a lot of dead wood that we are struggling to shift and won't feature so they are losing value. If we are building a new system and mentality then why play people like Nani, Anderson, Fellaini etc, who will be taking the place of better squad players that could come in to take their place and actually have the intelligence/ability to play the way LVG likes. We will sell these for a lot less than what we deserve for them, the club needs to cut its losses and move on - it doesn't paint a pretty picture for a future signing that is unsure of whether to come or not.

7. We have young players who have not performed that need a chance, Jones, Smalling for example. Shaw has come in we need a squad player to act as cover, likewise for CM, someone like Blind could do that and would accept being a squad player imo.

8. Clubs know how desperate we are and we are loaded, thanks to Woody. They also know we have had our pants pulled down with several recent acquisitions - why accept £30mil if they know holding out we will likely pay £40mil because we seem to be very naïve in negotiations when it comes to transfers.

Finally, a small point which won't matter to many players I am sure, but it would be very difficult to come in and be an immediate success. World Class players want to be legends, they want the adoration of the fans and staff, however they will never be able to eclipse Giggs, Scholes, Neville even Ronaldo, etc.

If you join Utd now it is a massive gamble for all these reasons, and I think this is making it very difficult to buy world class players. This is why we need some squad players coming in to settle the ship whilst confidence is restored for our world class targets to come gradually.

Look at City buying players from second tier teams, it's rare they buy from a Juventus, Munich, Dortmund, Barcelona, Madrid etc, only cast offs.

I want Vidal, Hummels, Vermaelen, maybe Strootman and somebody like Blind that can cover several positions to a high standard. But it will take time.

Beast -

1. Most players will not be that bothered about one season without Champions League football. Just look at Liverpool. They have Champions League football and still can't attract top players. 'We are Manchester United' still holds a lot or pull with most players. We were one of the dominant forces in world football throughout their childhoods. One poor season doesn't change that (just like one semi-decent season doesn't change the fact that Liverpool are a shadow of what they once were).

2 - LVG is a serial winner. He may be controversial at times - but he gets results. His performance for Holland and us over the summer emphasises that. I agree that his style of play will not suit everyone - but surely LVG will only be targeting players who suit his style of play, no?

3 - Taking Barcelona as an example; aside from the top top players (Messi, Neymar, Suarez) most of Barcelona's squad are on surprisingly low wages (when compared to Chelski, United, PSG, Monoco, Real and City). Bringing in players on high wages could be catastrophic for them in terms of squad harmony. They rarely spend big either and rely on players wanting to go there to push through deals (the deal they struck for Rakitic recently springs to mind). Bayern are very similar in that respect. The rest of our rivals (City, PSG, Monaco, Chelski and RM) are treading a thin line with FFP and we're now seeing them have to limit their spending.

4. Everyone has a price. If we're wiling to flex our financial muscle and able to convince players that we're the right club for them there aren't many players we couldn't sign (in theory).

5. Would you rather compete with Martinez, Gotze, Scweinsteiger, Thiago and Rode for a spot in the Bayern first 11 - or walk into the Manchester United first team earning twice as much money in a better league?

6. Players like Nani featured in the tour for two reasons. The first was to be given a chance to show LVG that he was good enough and the second was to remind potential suitors that he can still do a job (epic fail on both fronts). I agree that we've not been great when it comes to clearing deadwood but expect that Nani, Ando and a few others will go this window if the right offers come in.

7. What exactly makes you think Blind would be happy being a squad player when he could be a first-teamer at 90% of top flight clubs? We average more than 50 games a season and so signing players does not prevent young players from getting game time. We had Rio, Evans and Vidic in the squad up until a few months back and yet Smalling and Jones have still made 194 appearances between them over the past 3 seasons. That's an average of over 30 per season which is adequate as far as I'm concerned.

8. We're listed on the New York stock exchange for god's sake. Other club's knew that we were 'loaded' long before Woody started running his mouth. People know that the owners of PSG, Chelski, Monoco and City have bottomless pockets and that Liverpool started the summer with £75m burning a hole in their pocket. That's just how football is buddy.

Redman, I am just quibbling with the term "lack of ambition". We may have failed to build on our successful squads, but that failure was down to either bad management, or after the Glazers came in, lack of cash, but surely not lack of ambition. Fergie never wanted for that.

Red

I think you are being naive to think lack of ambition is the reason for not getting certain players. We have spend almost a 100 million since jan when you think that ewe have added Mata, Shaw and Herrera to the team, so that to em is plenty of ambition.

I find it quite boring how everyone complains about why we have not signed more and some of the posters naivety n believing we should buy almost a whole new team.

A cm and cb of good quality will provide us with a genuine chance of a title push. Our front 3 or 4 are sill the best in the league and goals win games and if they have a solid foundation behind them they will crete havoc for everyone.

I still maintain Vidal will wear the shirt come start of the season but never thought we would buy hummels and still don't. Quadrado is the mystery as I can's see how he fits in with the number of wingers we have and the Di maria and Quadrado stuff is bs imo

Peashooter, he means lack of ambition from the owners. After all finishing 4th is almost as lucrative as finishing 1st in the EPL, but to finish 4th you do not need to spend as much as you do to finish 1st. It's always about maximising profits with the Glazers. They like to find the balance where they do not have to spend as much money, but to still challenge for title, or at the very least finish in the top four. I also think SAF made many mistakes. With the cash he was given he messed up many times and he's the real reason our midfield (our Achilles heel) is so weak. His obsession with wingers and strikers prevented him from buying where we needed most (midfield).

07 Aug 2014 18:18:09
Just been catching up with todays posts after a rubbish day at work. I've just got to say thankyou to Brad for THAT post from this morning, about Vidal not being a pre Madonna. Classic quote, and one that has cheered me up no end. I think from now on I will refer to my early teens as the "pre Madonna" era. lol

Thanks Brad. And this is just banter, so please don't take a fence. My dog will get out :)

07 Aug 2014 20:59:14
I loves it too, laughed my head off.

That's what I meant Betty.pre Madonna! Post Boy George but pre Madonna
Haha don't tell my other half who takes great pleasure in correcting my grammar as it is notquite grammer school standard!
No offence taken and glad I inadvertently cheered you guys morning

No worries Brad, I'm glad you took it in good humour. Life is too short to take seriously. And your grammar is certainly not bad. But that was funny!

08 Aug 2014 00:00:48
I think that's what made it funnier, your grammar isn't bad at all but that was brilliant. Much better than the 'ed who are we going to sign' monotony!

07 Aug 2014 17:20:50
Reports from Italy that MU will officially bid for Vidal tomorrow. We will see.

I wouldn't put your money on that Syd.

More believable than the tripe in the English press about us insisting on a medical before discussing a fee.

There is a report every week that we have bid for him .

Why would anyone in Italy know what we are planning. The vast majority of what is written is made up or idle speculation

We've been "officially putting a bid in" for over a month now.?

Jred, exactly, it's getting tedious now.

Oops, my mistake the Italian media source were referring to Cuadrado, not Vidal. Taxi for Syd!

07 Aug 2014 20:57:36
Vidal is central to how ambitious we are, we need to buy him and a world class CB.

07 Aug 2014 16:30:53
ED is it true that Vidal deal is being held up because LvG wants to be sure about Vidal's knee situation?


To be honest for the kind of money we are rumoured to be paying for Vidal this kind of diligence is the least that is required.

Wouldn't want another Hargreaves.

07 Aug 2014 18:32:56
I wouldn't mind another Hargreaves.
He won us the title and was instrumental in winning the Champions League.

Sure he was frustrating afterwards, but I sure would love to do another double this season ;-)

I don't believe this theory, I don't think the inujry was that bad.
The deal may be getting held up but I think there will be a different issue behind it .

07 Aug 2014 17:52:30
I dnt get how the regulars are still asking these questions, the ed has explained many times the situation. :-)

I agree with Jred. It's always down to money.

Jred

It is money mostly and some concerns about the knee but these things are always subject to medicals anyway. I have watched him a lot and he was not right the last 3 months of serie A and never looked right n the world cup.

Most people don't realise he has about 10 assists and 10 goals in him, which is what we desperately need in a midfielder besides his defending and passing qualities. Best in the world Imo at his position and vidic like warrior quality. He is not a number 6 only and can play as 8 very easily.

07 Aug 2014 15:29:37
Because we are not in Europe we do not have to worry about competing with Real, Bayern, PSG etc., we just need to be concerned with the EPL. If we make top 4 then we can further strengthen next summer. That puts us in a much stronger negotiating position. We simply do not need to overspend on players who will add little or nothing to the squad's strength or do not fit into either the 3-4-1-2 system or 4-3-3 if LVG opts to go that way from time to time. The current squad could adapt to either.

So my feeling is that Cuadrado and di Maria are not going to happen. If Vidal can establish his health then I think we'll stomp up 40m for him. It would be logical to assume we could use another CB as well as a midfielder.

After last season too many United fans have written off too many of our squad but to me their poor performances were largely down to poor management across the board from day 1: tactics, motivation, training etc etc all left a lot to be desired. Ultimately it's a team game and great managers like Ferguson, and hopefully van Gaal, will make 2+2 = 5.

07 Aug 2014 15:55:50
I agree mate, we dnt wanna be like pool and just buy for the sake of buying, there needs to be a method behind our purchases, look at Chelsea for example, like them or not they no wot they are doing in the market, buying young and getting them game time even if it means not at there club, then if they dnt see a future for them at chelsea there resale value doesn't diminish.

We need certain types of players now to balance the team to get us moving forward.

I'm not sure how you can compare our situation to Liverpool's. We've known our budget and weaknesses for some time and have had time to plan and establish which of our targets will be available and which of those will be attainable. There's a myriad of players who would strengthen our team and I've no doubt we will have put together a comprehensive list of targets.

Liverpool, on the other hand, have come into a considerable amount of money and now find themselves needing to spend it to pacify the fans. It seems they were confident that they could hold onto Suarez for at least another year and so will not have planned for the situation they are currently in. Lallana and Moreno would have taken up the bulk of their original transfer budget and so I doubt they would have looked too much further than that.

CTR, I don't like them but you are right about Chelsea, they now have a transfer policy that seems to be oriented towards maintaining squad value. You can do this with young players even if they cost 30m+. If they are really good they will retain their value or even see it increase. Older players may not have much of a resale value after their contracts expire. This is why I think Herrera and Shaw are likely to be good buys. In 3-4 years time they will still be worth as much or more than we paid for them, whereas at 27 someone like Vidal may not be. He would have to prove his value over the duration of his contract. If he were the difference between ensuring European football and not, clearly he would be, or indeed by purchasing him we can recoup funds from sales and salaries going to other players.

07 Aug 2014 12:28:46
Vidal vs strootman

Now we all know that LVG rates strootman very highly and it is because of his injury that holland didn't play the 4-3-3 in the wc(LVG's preferred formation).And now that the vidal thing seems to have died down, many posters here are advocating for strootman or atleast dejong.
But the thing is strootman is good when it comes to the 4-3-3. How he will cope in a 2 man mid is not really clear. He IS slow and not the best on the ball. He can play very well in a 4-3-3 cause that is a different system, one that he is suited for. We can't just switch to that system because of our obvious lack of decent wingers and also then we wouldn't know what to do with mata and rooney.
On the other hand, do you really think he would do well in our current 3-4-1-2 withh hererra?IMHO, we'd be overrun.Its not his role.And if LVG is all about systems and all that, then buying strootman should not be a forgone conclusion.
If you only have 2 CMs, they had better be very mobile, good attacking and defensively, relatively quick and decent in possession. The other qualities can be shared between them.This is why yaya and fernandinho work so well but when you replace either of them with garcia, city struggle.

I think the role he'd play in our current system would be a lot more natural to Strootman than it would Vidal; and that Strootman would do a decent job if we were to sign him(assuming he's able to recover from his injury - which is by no means a foregone conclusion). Despite that though, I think Vidal would do a better job because he is a significantly better player. He's a better passer, is better defensively, is better positionally and is more mobile.

That is rubbish redseven, Juventus play kinda the same formation with 3 at the back vidal would fit in easy

It is like comparing Ronaldo to welbeck mate. Vidal is a rolls royce midfielder and strootman is a f. ing ford dude. I am just amazed by these posts and people should watch players rather than regurgitate sh. t from the papers.

Redseven,

I'm not so sure, Vidal plays in a 3-5-2 at Juventus.

However, I think Strootman will benefit from the fact (just like RVP) he knows Van Gaal very well.

07 Aug 2014 15:09:05
Juve play 3 at the back usually

I didn't suggest otherwise - I just think he'd be expected to play a more defensive role for us if we were to sign him.

07 Aug 2014 11:04:00
From the Beeb-

Juventus midfielder Arturo Vidal has agreed personal terms with Manchester United on a £182,000-a-week contract, reports Italian newspaper La Stampa.

Italian champions Juventus are said to have asked for a final decision from Vidal on whether he plans to leave or not on Wednesday and La Stampa reports he has agreed terms on a five-year deal.

07 Aug 2014 10:23:27
Completely agree with Shappy's, Bilki and other posters: think De Jong and Vermaelon will complete our summer business - then Striotman in a January.

This might seem like heresy to some but De Jong could be a better but than Vidal (who also has question marks over his knee): we need a more defensive midfielder to protect a fragile defence and, what with Mata and Herrera preferring a more attacking role, would a box to box midfielder like Vidal have perhaps left gaps behind the midfield? We'll get another B 2 Bx MF in Strootman so a more defensive MF is essential.

Think we'll slso get Caudrado to nail wing back: then, with youth coming through also and Carrick to come back, not a bad squad.

Would be happy with a top four finish and a cup run this year, then build on that the season after.

When De Jong was at City, yes he was dirty but he didn't half stop certain players from playing. Same in the World Cup. For £8 million he is a very smart signing and would give Herrera good support in the middle.

This has to be one of the most misinformed posts I've seen on this site - and that's including some of the dross on the Liverpool page.

De Jong would do a job for us but there is not a cat in hells chance that he would be a better signing. It's not even something that should need explaining to anybody who has watched them both play football.

As for people questioning his injury history because the press are trying to cover their backs in case a deal doesn't happen; Vidal missed 2 games with his injury and has never had an issue with his knee before in the time he's been playing. I'm not sure what's questionable about that?

If anybody has question marks over their fitness then it's surely Strootman? Despite having been a professional footballer for three years less than Vidal he's spent more than twice as much time out injured.

A fit De Jong, with his discipline in front of the defence, would be a more pragmatic buy than Vidal who has question marks over his knee (suspect the Chile coach knows that he shouldn't have used him in the WC - to the detriment of his fitness. )

Agree that Vidal is a far better footballer when fit (when I've watched him on You Tube) but, as it stands at the moment - when they're both fully fit it's a no-brainer - De Jong would do the job that we need in MF.

It will also give LVG time to assess Strootman in more depth before he potentially bids for him in January.

De Jong and disciplined are two words that I never thought I'd see in the same sentence.

Vidal averaged nearly twice as many tackles per game as De Jong last season (4.1 vs 2.2) and De Jong plays in a more defensive position. De Jong does have him beat in interceptions - but in terms of winning the ball back (primarily the job we'd be asking of them) - Vidal is still way out in front.

Aside from his defensive contribution - De Jong offers very little (whereas Vidal has more goals and assists than any other Juve player over the last three years). Vidal's also a better passer of the ball.

De Jong also has a history of knee problems (I remember at least 2 bad ones while he was playing in Germany) whilst Vidal's injury (one that wasn't bad enough to keep him from playing in the World Cup, remember) is the first time he's had any sort of issue with his knee(s).

Totally agree with Redseven here. Vidal is the better player, and he is more experienced and more consitent. Plus the knee injury he had just before the world cup was the exact same knee injury Suarez had.

07 Aug 2014 08:35:46
After being linked with Vidal for so long if we end up getting de jong it would be a real step down in my opinion I am not a fan that's for sure. he's a walking yellow card his distribution is poor and he adds absolutely nothing going forward. Yes he is strong in the tackle in the physical sense but it usually ends up in a foul anyway I would liken him to Tiote of Newcastle not in Utd class that's for sure I will go as far as if Fletcher is fit he gets in ahead of him 9/10 times. So fingers crossed this is one rumour that has no truth in it!

07 Aug 2014 09:17:35
De Jong is a good defensive midfielder with a lot of experience in the premier league and elsewhere .
If we got him for a reasonable fee he'd be a good addition to the squad , especially if we're not going to get Vidal and wait for Strootman

Ask yourself would City ever want him back? Not a chance! He would be cheap yes but why are Milan willing to let him go when they are a extremely poor side already? He would do a job but I honestly want some real class not a stopgap.

07 Aug 2014 08:04:58
Ed, reading a news about fitness concern over Vida's knee injury, is this a strategy to lower Vidal's price tag or are we looking to move away from Vidal?

07 Aug 2014 01:58:48
Well it looks like vermaelen is on the way in which means no hummels.that to me is very Dissappointing.idealy we need blind, Vidal and 2 cbs.i don't really understand this cuadrado talk.the window is getting g frustrating

06 Aug 2014 23:48:36
Great story about the Barcelona players drawing straws to see who would get the right to ask Scholes for his shirt after the match in 2011.
1. Wonderful to see the respect for Scholes, from the best team in the world at that time.
2. Says an awful lot about Spanish outlook vs the English one of recent times. Sad really.

Pretty sure that story is completely made up - but nice if true!

Apart from the scousers saying Gerrard is great every body else knows Schoels was one of the greats on pr or better than Xavi or Pirlo I consider Iniesta a number 10 by the way so that's why he not counted

I think it was Zidane that said Gerrard was great or the best in the world. Not just Liverpool fans. Scholes was also a great player. His tackling was awful as you all well know.

07 Aug 2014 15:15:30
The greatest trick the devil ever played, was convincing the world that Scholes' tackles were 'mis-timed'.