14 Feb 2023 09:49:19
Let's talk about chants and fan behaviour.

The Leeds game was unsavoury, with pretty awful thi gs being sang from both sets of fans, and no game against Liverpool passes without horrendous things being sang. We're not talking about a few idiots here, we're talking about thousands and thousands of fans all joining in.

I was working in Liverpool at the time of Hillsborough, and people I worked with knew people who had died, and after a massive campaign, blame was laid squarely where it belonged, which was NOT the fans. Yet every Liverpool game, United fans think it's perfectly ok to start the murderers chant. It makes me ashamed to a United fan.

We're not alone, the Munich song rears it's head all too regularly from some opposition fans, a lot further back in history, but still an obscene thing to do.

As society slowly becomes more enlightened, it seems football fans remain trapped in their tribal mindset where anything goes. I took my son to see United when he was about 7, and when he heard the 'My old man' song, he asked me what someof the words meant. I've never understood why thousands of people think its ok to song that, or the Vidic chant.

Watch any big game and see the anger and hatred on the faces of some fans, things that would get you arrested if you did them on the street are ignored in football stadiums. We've seen players assaulted on the pitch in recent years, I genuinely believe it is only a matter of time until one is seriously injured.

And the biggest issue is, nobody seems to particularly care or want do anything about it.

1.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 10:50:21
I'd like to see a situation where both sets of players just walk off the pitch whenever such chants start. Same for racial slurs which admittedly is less prevalent in the premier league as opposed to La Liga, Serie A etc.

2.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 11:15:50
Mate, society's still only enlightened as far as allowed by the fascist **** who use all manner of trash to remove the rights of minorities - the news this week is absolute proof of that.

What is actually happening is that the rats of the world are becoming more emboldened because the legal consequences for actions are now so pathetic.
These faecal segments strut around with 'My world - my rules' attitudes because they know the system will do little more than admonish then respectfully.

Society in this country is now a disgrace and the standard football ground is a perfect microcosm of the stupidity that applies to general life.
Let's be quite frank, if there wasn't the risk of never again attending a game, there would already be stabbings and other such extreme events.

As much as it pains me to say it, the average IQ of an adult football fan is less than that of general society so there will never be an end to the stupidity dribbling from the mouths of Grade A morons.

3.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 11:55:05
I agree entirely, AJH. Football matches seem to be one of the few places where normal people accept idiotic behaviour. Normal people also seem to become more idiotic at football matches.

You see someone who Monday to Friday is a positive contributor to society, that same person goes to a game on Saturday and is screaming everything they can think of at a ref, player, coach, opposition fans etc.

4.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 12:42:57
I forgot about the abuse refs get, and not just from fans, the grief the 4th official gets most games is dreadful.

Woggle, there right about minorities, I live in the village where the 16 year old girl was murdered last weekend. Bit the chants are different, they are about death, using it as something to make fun of or cause further hurt. It's obscene.

5.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 12:51:27
I don't remember it being any better in the 60s when I used to go to games regularly as a teenage, when I still lived in the UK. Take the games against Leeds. The chant: "Zigger zigger zigger, Reaney is a., " or, the quite normal, "you're going to get your f. ing heads kicked in". Skinheads, bovver boots, aggro, - the pent up anger released at the weekend.

I was in the UK for the game when Rashford emerged against Arsenal and had great tickets on the half way line. I took my wife, who was an Arsenal fan. Her experience at that game, the fan intensity, the awful language, the body language in close physical quarters, etc put her off watching football there and then. (I should say I was given a couple of tickets for a reverse fixture which United also won at the Emirates and the animosity was far less intense) . At another game at OT - same excellent seats - West Ham scored what was a subsequently disallowed goal in the last minute. Two WHU fans had seats in front of us, jumped up to celebrate. On that occasion it so very nearly came to violence. Mind you, I've seen the same thing on the sideline of kid's soccer games here in the US.

Team sports are ritualized war. The tribal rivalries never die. Protected by being a member of the tribe, disgraceful behavior has a tendency to gain license. It tends to be more limited when tribes share an overriding connection such as shared national identity. But if the center fails, as seems to me to be a phenomenon ever more prevalent in the West as it struggles to cope with the loss of its Industrial Age advantages, then a resurgence in aggressive behavior is all too likely.

. and yet, OT fills up week in week out still and the worldwide TV audience continues to grow.

6.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 13:13:14
It's a bigger picture issue for me. Generational lack of education, generational lack of morals, lack of respect, social media which leads to poor (and getting worse) communication/ people skills, poor behaviour by professional football players on the pitch, screaming/ swearing at referees which goes unpunished which then becomes the norm with youngsters and grass roots football.
Professional footballers earning obscene amounts of money on social media and in the media flashing their clams and shown driving to training in their Rolls Royces and Lambo Uterus's gives the kids something soulless to aspire to so they mirror their behaviour thinking that's how to act to get somewhere.
It's not just in football but transcends across from society today, music, fashion and the main stream and social media.
The social media cesspit I think is the accelerant which will make it get worse before it gets better.
Also they've probably never incurred a ban from ED002 (or any other ed's) or been on the end of his sharp wit (as I did many years ago) .
Let's have an Ed's and posters appreciation day especially Ed002.
Happy Valentines Day Ed002, other Ed's and posters.

{Ed002's Note - Yes happy Valentines Day.}

7.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 13:33:40
I don’t know how anyone could come home from a game, feeling happy they’ve chanted about the deaths of other human beings.

8.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 14:46:46
So I've recently been working in schools and within education you see so many problems in schools that are born out of social issues within the larger picture. However, it is not within the education sector power or remit to solve such issues, even though they regularly disrupt or inhibit learning.

You end up feeling powerless, these children's behaviour is just a cry for help in many cases but there is little to nothing that you can do for them.
Often the only solution is to exclude the child who is crying out for help as their behaviour is ruining the education of the other 25-30 kids in the class.

Society is really struggling currently, people are desperate, they aren't supported or given the means to support themselves. They lack education and understanding, they are denied the tools for self-improvement. Their feelings of self-esteem and value are rock bottom and the behaviour we see is just a symptom of that.

I'm not sure what role Football can play is fixing society, football certainly doesn't have a responsibility to try and solve these wider issues.

You can ban fans from the stadia, you can vilianise these people and speak out against. But ultimately removing these people from stadium's is akin to sweeping it under the rug. It doesn't get to the heart of what is wrong with these people or offer any hope of rehabilitation, growth or personal development.

People who engage with such behaviour are broken, they feel hopeless and lost, they don't think they are good enough and they don't believe they ever can be. They lash out as the only thing left to them to try and build up some level of self importance, to elevate themselves even for a few minutes above another group. These people lean heavily into national pride and have a tribal mentality as the only way they can feel any satisfaction or self worth is by attaching themselves to something and basking in that things glories.

These people need help, they are lost children lashing out due to their own feelings of inadequacy. I'm not sure banning them from stadiums, or leveling criminal charges at them solves anything. What needs doing is bigger than any of us or anything we can do as individuals, which sadly means it's unlikely to happen.

9.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 15:11:17
The majority of our songs make me cringe to be honest. My Old Man, Kicking a blue, Build a bonfire. There's a fine line between singing a song that puts your competitors down and then there's just being a pr*ck.

The problem with many football fans is when you're losing a match, the heinous songs come out. If the opposition fans sing something offensive, fans respond in kind. Excuses to sing disgusting songs.

You can see it when the ball goes out for a throw. The vitriol aimed at players is abhorrent. Men, women and children hurling obscenities at someone who's simply taking a throw.

You don't want to sanitise the atmosphere but you certainly want to start eradicating some of these chants.

10.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 15:31:56
I go to gaa matches here in Ireland with rivalries that make united v Liverpool look friendly.
Yet we can sit next to rival fans.
I was at the rugby on sat and had 3 French lads to my right and more behind me.
At the Olympics fans are not segregated.
At f1 fans are not segregated.
It's fairly unique to football.
Football supporters are of complete scumbags. I don't like going to games of football I'd rather go to rugby or hurling.

11.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 15:49:12
Ken, I wonder if doing away with fan segregation might actually help?

If you are in a mixed area then you lose the security of knowing everyone around you supports the same team, that safety in numbers. Like online trolls and keyboard warriors maybe fans feel safe and even emboldened by being removed from those they are hurling abuse at.

Removed that distance, that safety net and maybe peoples actions will change with it.

I must admit I've been to the rugby and I take in sports whenever I'm abroad such as baseball and Basketball games while in the States and there is a much better atmosphere, rivalry but without aggression or that nastiness. Fans sit side by side and give friendly banter, and to be honest it enhances the experience significantly.

12.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 15:51:29
Great points being made here but ken hits the nail on the head, it's pretty unique to football. I get all the societal problems, and the poor example often set by Managers in particular, but surely we can start by saying 'not at our club'. I don't think the club has any appetite for that, too much like hard work and hey, everybody does ir, right?

13.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 15:54:42
I think it would worthwhile trialling fans not being separated in games in lower leagues, at least between teams with zero historical rivalry, perhaps with larger allocations for away fans. It might be a complete bust but there is a chance it reduce the mob mentality that promotes such behaviour.

I also think that managers and players have a responsibility to speak out about such issues because there is at least a small chances that fans might listen to some senior figures at the club they support every week.

14.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 16:26:55
I agree Ken, went to England v Scotland. Fans mostly mixed together, did'nt hear one bit of abuse inside or outside the ground.
But as has been said before, the referees don't take any back chat and only captains can speak to the referee pretty much at all levels.
My lad plays a lot including for Bath U16's and has been coached by some top people including ex-professionals. They are generally always positive and refer to the "spirit of rugby".
There is no spirit of football, there used to be a long time ago.
And things seem to be creeping back into the game that used to be clamped down on before, kicking the ball away, elbows etc, also add pundits labelling clear diving/ cheating as "clever" now.
Then the younger generation think it's ok and so it's just another example/ cycle that continues.

15.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 17:06:35
You lads are right about the separation being an issue. It's the "hold me back" mentality of a safety net that I can act how I want because I'm surrounded by people who will back me up.

Being from Ireland and watching plenty of big games in pubs, you'll get the odd scuffle here or there but iv been in pubs Liverpool memorabilia behind the bar, outnumbered 10 to 1 and watch United win, no hassle.

My partner had a little King Charles dog when we started going out many moons ago. Go for a walk with this fella on a lead and he would go mental and everything. Dogs 6 times the size of him, fearless because he was been held back on a lead. Take it off in a dog park and this little looney would cowar until he realised he could have fun without fighting everyone.

16.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 19:27:57
Hi Tony, tragic news re the girl who was murdered in our village. Our thoughts are with her family in this awfully sad time.
I have always wondered in disbelief why supposedly "grown up men and women" resort to sing these vile songs. I'm not even sure society is "enlightened", I actually think society is going backwards. No respect for parents, teachers, authorities. Police, ambulance staff, firefighters being assaulted.
This is not an enlightened society.
We see it on the pitch with players shouting at referees and linesmen, it's becoming desperate, and anyone who can't see this deterioration, must remove their head from the proverbial sand.

17.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 19:43:21
Great discussion. I think segregation has a lot to do with it. It's very hard to sing nasty stuff to someone sat next to you.

I think the players can set a better example as well and that comes from the officiating. We see more discipline on rugby pitches and that sets the tone.

18.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 22:20:16
Fans have to be segregated at football, violence is the on the increase. Every club has a number of 'risk' supporters, these people are actively looking for a fight. Then each club has a greater number of people who if trouble starts will join in.

Every weekend, up and down the country at numerous games fights are prevented. Segregation would mean you would have in the ground groups of fans actively looking for a fight mixed with targets.

At every game spotters from both teams follow both sets of risk supporters and the commander deploys the rest of units constantly as real time information comes in from this and other, (you can work it out! ) To stop disorder, it's no lie to say hundreds of fights are stopped each match day. Given this mixing fans would and should never be allowed, until football changes.

It's entirely cultural to football, it doesn't happen in other sports because the fans don't want it too, it happens in football because there are significant numbers of people who want it to happen.

I have been to both Rugby Union and league, cricket, NFL and NBA games, the culture just isn't there for various reasons. I have to say that the atmosphere is very different, do I think better, I won't say that. I also have to be honest in that, as a young man, I was involved in things that now I would be less proud of? Why, because as I said above, there is a glamour, a folklore around it, its about a belonging, a togetherness, a brotherhood. . I wonder how many people here have ever joined in a song that could be considered offensive? I have. Did I think about how it would be taken, no? If I had even thought of it, I would have thought, it's just part of football, it's a laugh really. The fact is I didn't even consider ot, not till I was much older and obviously exposed to a very different side of things.

Every club has a growing number of a youth element to the risk groups, they is a glamorisation of football violence thanks to the media.

The sad reality about the offensive songs is that they will only stop when the fans themselves find it unacceptable and stop it. So it then falls to the footballing authorities and clubs to stop it.

How do they do that? Simply really, if they wanted to. They would make clubs whos fans offended play behind closed doors. The clubs would then tell the fans you sing your banned from all designated sporting events for life, they have more than enough CCTV/ police footage to do this.

Football hasn't tackled this problem, probably because these people do pay money to watch every game and also travel a lot to games. Financially it would hurt, there would be a certain number of people who would refuse to go any more as they saw it being yet another example of political correctness and the nanny state. I do think it would cost clubs money.

19.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 22:20:41
All great points and all relevant in one way or another.

The fish rots from the head as they say. In this case as a few have discussed is the discipline on the pitch.

Start booking players on the park as soon as they abuse an official or another player. Send the managers off immediately that they abuse the 4th official. Book players as soon as they approach the officials after every contentious decision. Use Rugby Union, as has been mentioned, as an example.

Yes of course it would be painful in the beginning but before before long the message will get through. Same for diving and feigning injury to the wrong part of the body after a tackle. It is fast becoming a farce across the whole game. Use mach reviews and clamp down on this clown behaviour.

All these add up to a bad atmosphere from which vitriol stems.

20.) 14 Feb 2023
14 Feb 2023 22:22:16
Football is unique.
Watch the analysis on TV. Its all about the blame game. Pick out the negatives. Find the culprit.
Papers are the same and social media is a feeding frenzy to blame humiliate and abuse players and refs and managers. You only need to read it on here.
You don't see that in rugby, hockey rugby league, netball, cricket 1 day stuff, gaa.
You don't get all the I know better than the manager stuff.
You come out of a rugby stadium after winning or losing and nobody is trying to find the fall guy, nobody is trying to convince the multitudes that they know better and would have played x at scrum half made 4 different subs and would have had a different starting 15. Oh and the full back is stealing a living. ?
Fans of other sports have more respect for the opposition and the players and the coaches and the referees. Players in other sports have more respect for their opposition the officials the fans and their coaches.
Football is unique in the sense that nobody has respect for the officials not the coaches not the players and not the fans.
You only have to read on here or on the live chat.
Football is unique in that every Tom dick and Harry knows how to pick a team make a sub, play the game, ref the game, and analyse a game better than the experts.
Players are sh€te refs are shi€t.
Some say it's their opinion and entitled to it. But it's, while not quite unique, it's much more prevalent than any other soort that fans voice their opinions the way football fans do.