Manchester United Banter Archive November 25 2013

25 Nov 2013 20:38:13
The last 20 years people have gloried at the one club wonder that is Ryan Giggs. Today we should all take a moment and remember a true great, a one club man from 1951 to 1970 and 688 appearances, still 4th in our all time table.
Then remember he played with the great team of the fifties that Munich took away, remember he was on that plane. Yet still he came back, took the captaincy when we needed and gave many more years of loyalty. In 68 he side footed a goal against Madrid that got us there and he was there at Wembley to achieve the dream after all that had happened ten years earlier.
He was a good family man, a Manchester United man and a legend.
RIP Bill

Thank you RedMan, that was a very fitting and eloquent tribute to a true United Hero.

Well said Red Man, RIP Bill

26 Nov 2013 13:49:21
Well said Red Man, rest in peace Bill. You will always have a place in our hearts.

25 Nov 2013 18:21:45
As Ed004 has said we should be moving to a 3 in midfield. The question is, do you see this happening? I personally think we need to build in January based around this formation. A flexible 4-3-3, more in the diamond formation I think would suit us best with say, Fellaini holding, Carrick alongside Herrera, Januzaj or Kagawa ahead of them with Rooney & RVP up top. This has to be the formation that best befits our players and we would get the most out of our two world class talented midfielders (Kagawa & Januzaj).

If we were to play a 3 in the middle, and don't shoot the messenger, but would a short term move for Sneijder not be really sensible given that his range of forward passing is still some of the best in the world. A straight swap for Nani and we have a player that could instantly make an impact. {Ed004's Note - My concern is with Rooney and RVP it is impossible or very hard to play a 3 man midfield as both like playing centrally and neither are wingers IMO. I originally suggested selling Rooney but with us needing a cb, 2 cm's and two wingers it may be too much for two windows looking for another midfielder. The only midfield player currently good enough is Carrick. Hopefully the club move for Bender, Coentrao and Di Maria/Mata in January. All will want a strong end to the season to get in their World Cup squads with Di Maria, Mata and Coentraos game time limited and Lars would just help us massively. If we are to continue with the two man midfield we need a quicker midfield would will cover the ground quickly. Fellaini and Carrick are too slow for a two man midfield}

Would you say Di Maria or Mata are plausible? Thanks! {Ed004's Note - I have no idea. Do not think Mata is though}

There is no point talking about a 3 man midfield because Moyes is committed to playing a formation built around Rooney. Rooney isn't happy unless he is given a free role behind the main striker: he won't play in midfield, he isn't fast enough to play on the wing, and he can't play on his own upfront. Rooney is forward who gets sucked back toward the ball instead of running in behind the defence. In the modern era you need players who stretch the defence with their runs, and, for this reason, any team built around Rooney is going to need two forwards.

So it doesn't matter how many midfielders we have, Moyes is committed to Rooney and to 4-4-2. City have shown that a 4-4-2 can still work if you have two quality box-to-box players, but I can't see us buying that calibre of player either. Let's face it, while Moyes is manager these are the tactics we're stuck with. He has shown no indication that he thinks his tactics are flawed and no willingness to change things up. {Ed004's Note - That's my worry as well. I would sell Rooney if it meant we could move to a 433 formation and asking as we got a good enough replacement}

Last season, we used a diamond formation at Newcastle, and we were excellent.

We need to play three in the middle. It is a prerequisite if we want to challenge for honours this season. But will Moyes' change the system? {Ed004's Note - Probably not}

I actually rate Cleverley. He's a smart little player with a good pass completion rate. He's always moving, and his work rate and position are usually pretty good. He gives away fouls a little too often, and I would like to see him trying to be a little more ambitious with his passing from time to time. But I think the stick he gets is pretty ridiculous. United don't have a ton of options in the center of the park, and Cleverley is one of our more consistent performers. He's the kind of player that makes others around him look good. He's not going to get many goals or assists, but he'll keep the team ticking.

All this being said, I don't think Cleverley should be one of the first names on the teams sheet week after week. He's an excellent squad player, and with a team of United's caliber, you need a deep squad. But people calling for him to be sold? Come on.

4_2_3_1 is the formation I would go for, rooney would fit in to it fine I think the biggest issue is moyes insistence on playing 2 out and out wingers {Ed004's Note - We need two wide players who can also tuck into midfield and are comfortable on the ball. Preferably one right footed and one left footed, ideally Di Maria/Mata and Reus/Sanchez/Draxler}

25 Nov 2013 19:54:52
I think its the biggest worry Ed, the tactics this season have been poor.

As well as Rooney has played and as much as he has carried us, I do think tactically he's holding us back and I can see it becoming like Gerrard over at Liverpool, the team built around one player and totally inflexible in doing anything else. {Ed004's Note - Hopefully Kagawa regains his form at Dortmund and shows Moyes he is good enough to play that role}

Jred, that formation isn't all that different than what we've been playing for the last few months. Neither Kagawa or Januzaj are out-and-out wingers, although they are somewhat limited because they have to cover Evra so much.

As far as I see things we have two options: we either buy two top class box-to-box cms who can cope in a midfield two, or we sell Rooney and move to a three man midfield.

If the team is built around Rooney then it drastically limits our tactical options. At the moment he has a completely free role where he can do what he wants on the pitch. He can't play in a midfield three because he doesn't like the positional constraints, and because he doesn't move the ball quickly enough (in fact, 90% of the time he gets the ball near the middle of the park we're all expecting the inevitable cross field pass to the wing). He can't play as an outright striker because he isn't patient enough, he gets sucked back toward the ball and doesn't stretch defences.

Rooney's form has improved this season but it has come at a cost. Moyes has built the team around the idea the Rooney should have a free role, but this has made us even more predictable and creatively defunct than we have been for years.

Ruddinthemood,

It's not about the pass completion rate, it's about the quality and purpose of a pass. Leon Britton has ridiculous passing stats, and yet he has been pushed out of a very average midfield.

When you pass the ball from Carrick to Rio, and then again from Rio to Vidic, and then lay it to carrick and running around covering ground, it doesn't mean you're a good energetic midfielder, it just meas that you run around a lot.

When you also chase the ball, leaving your position open, you have to be capable of winning it back. that's why Carrick is static, he is better at intercepting than passing, and Fellaini roams, because he can tackle.

Cleverley can't do either to good effect. When you need to drive forward, you have to be capable with the ball at your feet, beating defenders to create space for a shot or a pass. Guess who can't do it to good, or any, effect.

Cleverley is a decent squad player. Not good squad player, just decent and should be way more down the pecking order at a team like us, and that's how bad our midfield is.

Danny.
We have played exactly the same when rooney hasn't played.
Moyes picks the team and the tactics I really don't get the sell our best player mentality.
Add 2 good cm players and any wide player with a bit of form and we would be a different team.
Kags nani and co have been average and our cm has been awful I would sort this out before I sold one of our best players.
Even when kags plays he is out wide as a winger .
Watch how arsenal or Dortmund implement the 4_2_3_1 it's nothing like we play .
For me rooney would fit this formation well but to be honest I'm not very impressed with moyes tactics.
Or maybe rooney is picking the team?

I should also add I think we play the same formation as Everton did under moyes.
2 in the middle 2 out wide 1 playing of the striker i'm not sure moyes is accommodating rooney I think he is playing the formation and tactics he wants to and has played in the past

Jred, I agree that Moyes is picking the team and it's hardly Rooney's fault that he wants to play in his favoured position. However, Moyes did not play this formation at Everton. He played three in the middle with two defensive players and one further forward. The players who played at the tip of the midfield, Cahill and Fellaini, were there as a target for long balls and to offer another body in the box for crosses, but they were not playing in the free role that Rooney is playing, and, in fact, they spent a large portion of the game defending along with the other two midfielders.

It's hard to talk about selling a really good player when we have so much dross, but Rooney means that we are restricted to two up front. He will never be the type of player that Ozil or Gotze are, he simply doesn't have the vision or quickness of feet and thought. And that's the type of player you need for Arsenal and Dortmund's 4-2-3-1. SAF wanted to move him to midfield and I think that would have been the best scenario for everyone. But Rooney doesn't want to play there and we either need to stump up for top notch midfielders who can work in a 2 man midfield or sell him.

Along with Fresh, I also have thought about seeing us play a diamond midfield.

Rooney and RVP up front.

Carrick should play at the bottom of the diamond, with his experience and reading of the game. He will have the discipline to stay central and not run all over the place.

The two lateral players will need to cover a lot of ground. At the moment, I would prefer Jones and Fellaini. We would need to add to this area, hopefully a player with a good engine and technical ablility, perhaps Herrera or Koke.

The top of the diamond would be well suited for Kagawa, with his ability to turn and combine quickly. And I think Januzaj could play at the top or in a lateral position. But playing both of these players might make us lightweight v some opponents.

If Moyes prepared the team tactically with this, then I am sure there would be many other combinations possible as well.

Danny
I think we will have to agree to disagree I really do think rooney would work well in a 4_2_3_1 as would kagawa and Adan .I think all 3 of them players would struggle in a 4_3_3
At Everton I think fellaini role is very similar to rooneys with the exception Everton played a bit more of the long ball.
For me in rooney and rvp we have 2 top quality players at a time when we are struggling to sign a top talent . I would look to play a formation that got the best out of them to be honest.
Imo if you take rooney out the team it look a very average 11

Danny
Sell rooney or buy 2 top cm is a no brainer for me.
For me if we sell or keep rooney we still need to sign 2 cm.
Rooney and rvp in front of a top quality midfield would do fine imo .

25 Nov 2013 16:00:37
Ok guys I can totally understand the stick cleverley gets and i'm not his biggest fan by any stretch but I can't stand people blaming our midfield problems on him and him alone, he has become our scapegoat for poor acquisitions in that area! We dnt have many alternatives, some have suggested Anderson but then last week we had many saying how unprofessional he is and all that, but that got lost in the dembelle thread Shapps started up!
Its just like fletcher and Gibson all over again and tbh its not really fair on the lad, no he's not xavi or inesta or even dembelle ;-) but the way some talk about him on here is so cold, he's still our player and tbh what's the alternative? We can't buy anyone now so we have clevs trying to hold our poor excuse of a midfield together. I think we should all just take a step back from the same old clevs bashing after we drop points and recognise the real reason our midfield get dominated on a near weekly basis now. Poor recruitment and poor tatics are all much more relevent reasons why we get dominated in this area!
Rant over!

25 Nov 2013 19:52:15
Its the lack of support from the owners and Woodward in bringing in targets in the summer and poor tactics in persisting with an outdated formation.

I actually rate Cleverley. He's a smart little player with a good pass completion rate. He's always moving, and his work rate and position are usually pretty good. He gives away fouls a little too often, and I would like to see him trying to be a little more ambitious with his passing from time to time. But I think the stick he gets is pretty ridiculous. United don't have a ton of options in the center of the park, and Cleverley is one of our more consistent performers. He's the kind of player that makes others around him look good. He's not going to get many goals or assists, but he'll keep the team ticking.

All this being said, I don't think Cleverley should be one of the first names on the teams sheet week after week. He's an excellent squad player, and with a team of United's caliber, you need a deep squad. But people calling for him to be sold? Come on.

Cleverley gets a lot of stick because he's a regular, practically a starter.

And he has shown time and time again that he is not that good.

most people who criticize him actually appreciate him as a squad player, but are frustrated by how much he starts, which is obviously much more than he should.

25 Nov 2013 12:58:37
in the whole game yesterday I saw 2 forward passes that stretched their defence. both of them by ryan gigs and both of them I believe would have been finished by rvp if he was playing. we don't break with pace at all. the ball goes sideways then backwards which gives the opposition time to get behind the ball. I understand to keep possession sometimes go backwards but we keep the ball for 25 passes in our own half go back to de gea and he whacks it to their centre back. can anyone in the utd midfield move forward with the ball, commit a player or even beat a player.

25 Nov 2013 10:22:32
A lot of hate for Fellaini generally across the web, but if you look at statistics he was our second best player on the park behind Smalling. He won 8 headers, more than anyone. His passing was 83% which was again the most. He touched the ball 75 times which was second only to Smalling. So he didn't have that bad a game.

The big problem is that Smalling touches the ball the most put of everyone. When you think someone like Xavi touches the ball upwards of 200 times a game you can see our problem. Our right back had the most touches, really really poor.

25 Nov 2013 13:18:27
Hi Chaps.

despite all the comments. this is the worst United side for some considerable time. I love the excuse that "Fergie took 3-4 seasons before winning anything"
Man United are now answerable to a stock exchange and governed by the Glaziers.
when fergie took over we were in a position much like Everton and the likes. now we are top 4 and need to be for the sake of all the debt / and our brand name with several sponsors. thus we need a top drawer team. Bayern have done it/ Barca do it / Real do it and dare I say it City and Chelsea. the mere fact that the appointment of David Moyes is a total joke . without an interview with other top candidates ie Pep / Jose / Lauren Blanc / Klopp etc amazes me.
Moyes is out of depth. and his record is good with EVERTON only. middle of the table side. if he had the credentials then the top clubs would have snapped him long before us!

The signing of Fellaini is a complete and utter farce. for 27 mil . the guys is clumsy and cumbersome and lacks pace/ he cannot tackle and stumbles. he as the body of a sherrifs badge when it comes to control. enough said.

we need to offload the likes of Young / Anderson/ Cleverley / Hernandez / Welbeck / Nani. all whom have not and do not offer anything to team.

come the summer we need a complete overall in clientele . hopefully we finish in top 4 . to get these players. otherwise debt will increase with no ECL matches and the Glaziers asking questions about there monies/investment

I also cannot believe that Moyes did not have a plan prior to taking the United job. in terms of players required and whom to offload. surely he had discussion with Fergie.

Stockport RED

Statistics don't tell the full story, especially just selected statistics.
Fellaini fouled 4 times in the first 20 minutes and seemed to just run around aimlessly. His use of possession was bad and neither him nor cleverly have the ability to cut open the defence with a pass.

To be fair the entire team seemed disjointed and nobody seemed to be open for one another. The team looked frustrated with one another and it seemed to show with Rooney's frustration. He knows as United, we should be doing much better and we should have more quality in our team than we currently do.

While I am enjoying watching other teams play I can not wait until January, something has to be done and if I was Moyes I would look to shore up his problems sooner rather than later and with the world cup inflating players prices (those who preform), it would stand him in good stead if he can get players cheaper rather than making the same mistake he did with fellaini and paying 3 million more that what was necessary to get him.

Dear mates are we forgetting that in August the same Cardiff City beat Man City 3-2 so we must be realisitic this EPL
Susu

25 Nov 2013 10:15:34
The football under Moyes is just awful. Outplayed in midfield in every game so far this year. Predictable, boring, inflexible. This will not excite the next generation to follow United.

25 Nov 2013 09:46:27
Hi all
You have 7 games left to play this year, do you think you can get 21 points from them and put yourselfs right back in it? Or do you think you will continue to drop unexpected points making a title bid unrealistic by Jan 1st?
And no you don't play us in those 7 matches so there are no certainties in them :-)

We do not and will not need 21 points from 21 to win this league. If we are 5 points behind over the Christmas period that is absolutely nothing at all and can be turned round in the space of 4 days some weeks.

This is a poor united team, in all honesty I think we will finish 3rd, but I do not think Arsenal will win the league, there has been 12 games gone and there are some huge huge games over the coming weeks. Unfortunately if City get their away form together they could win the league by a long way, but if they don't it could be tightest race in history with 4 teams fighting it out around April time.

Gunner62

We'll definitely drop points, but so will others. I reckon we'll be 4th or 5th come the new year.

I know this utd team isn't great which says so much about AF and what he achieved with it, its unbelievable how good he was and only now are we realizing how good.
But I think Moyes will turn it around and 7 out of 7 is possible but one defeat and a couple of draws amongst the 7 would see you chasing a CL spot at best this season

25 Nov 2013 08:27:39
That defeat was pure bad tactics imo should of matched them by playing a 451 especially with rvp out. I like hernandez but he can go missing in games. I think he should be used by us to sign koke if we can and then promote will keane to replace hernandez. I think against the lower teams away from home you have to make sure you win the midfield fight and the lower teams tend to put 5 in there and it can be hard for a 4 to get a grip on the game if Anderson had started instead of hernandez I think that game would of ended up 2 or 3 0 to us. One last thing evans evra and ferdinand are not good enough Evans I would like to highlight I think he is terrible always got a big mistake in him I would put smalling next to vidic or jones preferably jones but he's are best cm atm so maybe not. I see jones and smalling if played consistently together will be better than ferdinand and vidic at there best just need to play regular together