Manchester United discussion 2

07 May 2024 11:56:24
Ed02 - do we still intend to appoint someone who will be in charge of recruitment? If so, is there a preferred choice currently?

Talk of Freedman and Ward previously but it's all gone a bit quiet.

Thanks.

{Ed002's Note - Matt Hargreaves until Ashworth arrives.}

07 May 2024 11:04:05
When was the last time united finished a league season with negative goal difference?

07 May 2024 11:28:18
89? SACK SAF? Something like that.

07 May 2024 11:03:22
The worst season for conceding goals in recent history was when? We conceded 81 goals in all comps. That's how many we have conceded so far this season.
Can you name the season we conceded 81?

07 May 2024 11:27:21
76/ 77 they mentioned it plenty of times today!

07 May 2024 11:37:53
We won the fa cup final that season keefy I was at it.
The doc was fired after it but for a totally non footballing reason.

07 May 2024 12:36:16
Back in the days when winning the FA Cup meant success for United ☹️. Sadly we are at that stage again. Mind you three FA Cup appearances in 4 years. I was at the Liverpool and Arsenal games. Lost 1 won 1.

07 May 2024 12:32:00
Mrs Brown from memory.

07 May 2024 10:59:31
Let's lighten things up a bit.
Quiz time.
Only 1 club has conceded 4 goals away from home more times than Manchester United over past 2 seasons
Who is it?

07 May 2024 14:16:16
Lol. What a question to lighten the mood Ken 😂😂😂.

06 May 2024 09:11:57
Make no bones about it, not being in Europe in any form is bad news. period. All this discussion about having a smaller squad (which will not happen) and reduced wages is a false hope.

We will not have much chance attracting players anyway with our poor showings of late but having the Europe feather missing, no matter what level, is going to hurt our return to where we belong.

It was already going to be upwards of four years before we can get close to competing with the top 4, including Aston Villa! Having a mediocre squad to get us through the next couple of years is hardly conducive to a planned return to the top where we have to refresh again in two/ three years, when there is every risk we will be in the same boat.

It's going to be a long ride children, hold on, strap in and get ready for some hard times. ESPECIALLY if the delusional one is still in charge.

06 May 2024 10:46:56
Spot on keefy only a fool or idiot imo would suggest no European football is a good thing.

06 May 2024 10:58:15
Upwards of four years before we even get close to competing with top 4? Didn’t we finish in the top 4 last season? Quite a strange post.

06 May 2024 11:40:53
Yes mate…. last season!

06 May 2024 11:58:17
We need to make the Europa League next season. While the scheduling isn't great, we need both the prestige of playing European football to attract new signings, and the income it brings to support rebuilding the squad.

Failing to get into the Europa League at a bare minimum will have massive implications on our ability to rebuild the squad and probably adds at least an extra year to our rebuild.

Most of the players we will look to sign this summer will be playing for either a team in the UCL or in the Europa League. It'll be very hard to convince them to leave a club playing European football to join one that isn't. Especially if we are looking to sign players whose career is on an upward trajectory.

We can promise them the earth, say about the changes happening at the club, but ultimately it's all if buts and maybes as there is no proven track record yet. It's unlikely that our new DoF will even be in place and there are question marks over who will be the manager next season.

If I take my Manchester United hat off for a minute and put myself in the shoes of an agent for a young up and coming player would I seriously suggest signing for United would be a great idea this summer? Or would I say let's wait and see what offers come in and whether there are clubs in the UCL who are more settled and have a clear plan and have good recent track record of success and improvement. If no offers come in other than United would I seriously suggest taking the gamble of moving to a club at the start of a massive overhaul, or to stay where they are for another season. At a club where they are progressing, developing, and improving. Where they are settled, playing regularly and part of the managers plans.

Taking my Manchester United bias out of it for a second and it becomes hard to find reasons to really justify moving to Manchester United for a young up and coming player beyond a big pay day.

Which if we are trying to reduce the wage bill and implement a sustainable wage structure, then surely offering massive wages and big agents fees is something we need to be shying away from.

We need to make at least the Europa League for so many reasons, even if it's not the competition we want to be in. No point throwing out toys out the pram and cutting our nose off to spite our face. We have to accept where we are and cut our cloth accordingly. That is the only way we can start to turn the club around and start moving in the right direction.

06 May 2024 12:33:54
Agree Shappy!

06 May 2024 13:41:18
I don't see how being in the Conference Cup or whatever it's called is going to provide any draw to the type of players the club needs to sign. So, yes, not being in Europe is a big loss, but there was a time when even the Europa Cup would have been considered a competition below the level befitting the revered status we continue to harbor in our own minds. I suppose the extra £15m the club might earn from winning the tournament might be considered a necessary benefit, but that sum would be consumed by a single extra £40m player on £125k a week.

06 May 2024 14:18:36
Easy knowing it's not your money shawthing. The revenue to the club in winning the europa league far exceeds 15m.

06 May 2024 16:31:50
Frankly if Utd are that desperate to make £15m from a tin pot competition something is badly wrong.

We need to look long term. If we get a season where the current or new manager has time to properly integrate and coach players and also let them rest between games it can only benefit the team.

No team which plays on a thursday has seriously competed for the league.

I am not worried about attracting the best players if we are not in Europe provided the manager can show potential signings that we will improve and that there is a sensible plan how to build a top team.

06 May 2024 16:53:14
Shawthing, the money earned through prize money, TV, gate receipt, match day sales, and sponsorship can all be easily measured and will far exceed 15m.

While the increased global exposure, which can drive up merchandise and sponsorship income is harder to quantify, but will obviously have some impact.

Then you have the ability to sign key young players due to playing European football. Maybe one of them becomes the next superstar and face for the club, further increasing income.

I'm not saying the Europa league is where I want us to be, but it is where we find ourselves as a club right now. We mocked Liverpool fans all through the 90's and 00's for trying to act like a top club when clearly they weren't at the time (big club yes, but not a top club) . We can't keep acting like a club challenging for major honours when in reality we haven't really challenged for any of them for over a decade (league and UCL) .

We need to accept where we are, cut our cloth accordingly and build from there, not stick our heads in the sand and turn our nose up at income from Europe's 2nd or 3rd tier competition based on the idea that its beneath us.

06 May 2024 18:20:00
Europa League legend David Moyes will be available next season, the stars are aligning.

06 May 2024 19:22:43
Salford, it really doesn't matter which competitions we are in next season we won't be competing for the league title.

If you seriously expect or even hope that to be the case then you will be sorely disappointed. We are a absolute bare minimum of two or three seasons away from being able to have a realistic chance at challenging for the title.

Next season should be about clearing the decks, bringing through some younger players and starting to create a team identity. Ideally all while improving on results to get top four. Although a 5th place finish next season wouldn't be a disaster, although it would be disappointing.

It'll take this summer and next summer to move on the number of players we need to move on. I could easily see 10-12 leave this summer and another 8-10 next summer.

With that many out goings we will need to probably sign 10-12 players at a bare minimum over the next two summers, as well as promoting a few of the best youngsters from the academy to fill the gaps.

Which means we are unlikely to have the core group of 18 or so players together, training every day until the start of the 2025/ 26 season. You'd then expect they will need a season or two to build up that understanding and for those younger players to start to hit their peaks and perform consistently.

Which really puts us at the 2026/ 27 season at the earliest before we are likely to see a serious title challenge. For that to be the case you'd probably need a near 100% success rate with those signings. If 4 or 5 of those 10-12 signings over the next two summer windows either fail to live up to expectations, or take longer to adapt than hoped, or if any of the young players we currently have go off the boil, leave or for whatever reason don't reach the levels we hope then we'd still be 4-5 quality players away from having a squad capable of challenging.

People still seem stuck on this idea of some kind of magician coach who can turn old knackers into world class players with a few words and a new training regime. It's nonsense.

Klopp changed 18 of the original squad he took over before winning anything with Liverpool. Pep changed 16 players in the first team squad before winning his first title despite having a much better squad to begin with and one that was built with him in mind to come in and manage them. To date Pep has signed 52 players while at City, and Klopp has signed 37.

Arteta took over Arsenal in the 2019/ 20 season, it wasn't until the 2022/ 23 season before he had a squad capable of challenging for the title. In the 5 summer transfer windows since Arteta took over Arsenal they have signed 26 players, and only 4 of the original squad he inherited still remain.

These three are held up as the best managers in the league, as managers who have "coached" a specific style of play in their teams.

Yet the reality is that all three have required an almost total rebuild of their squads to get the players required to play this "coached" style of play.

Now that's not to say they aren't great coaches, just that a coach can only do so much to help a player improve. Ultimately you can't coach a dolphin to win the London marathon. Players are constrained by their physical and mental capabilities.

Personally I'd be amazed if we have more than 5 players in our current squad who are still here and playing regularly in our next title winning side.

Literally I'd say Mainoo, Garnacho, Hojlund, and Martinez are the only one's I'd feel confident in. Mount, Onana, Dalot and Rashford as outside contenders, but I'm not confident in any of them for various reasons.

That means at a bare minimum we will need 3 CB's, 3 fullbacks, 3 midfielders, 2-3 wingers, at least 1 ST, and probably 1-2 GK's.

That's 13-15 players, some could come from the academy, yet they will take a few seasons to become reliable players in the first team, so they aren't quick fixes even if they save us money.

I see this as a 3 year rebuilding process with us being realistically in a place to challenge for major honours in 4-5 years time. With somewhere between 15-20 players leaving and 15-18 new players being integrated into the squad.

So no, I don't see the team having extra time to rest on their laurels or do extra training next season as any benefit at all. We need to get our players in the condition and used to playing twice a week and performing in multiple competitions as that is where we want to be. You learn twice as much by playing games than you do from training. That's why its so important young players get game time as merely training with the first team stunts their development. Ultimately they need to play games. That's where you learn and grow.

06 May 2024 20:31:20
We are going through a process, you can see that the youth teams have already had that reset and are on their way. The first team has been harder due to flogs on high wages.
This summer is about removing stock from our team. Players who either don't understand, don't have the mental attributes or simply don't want to, play for united.
The same applies to the recruitment.
Our demise has been well documented, any player, globally, will understand that United is not currently where it wants to be, and those that understand this and still have a desire to come and play for united, not the money, are the ones that should and likely will be targeted.
Those targets, will understand the objectives for their tenure, short and long term. Therefore having European football, whilst I believe should be something we aim for each and every season, I don't believe not having it will prevent us getting the players we want.

07 May 2024 06:44:27
Love it Grim.

05 May 2024 12:01:07
Next season's third kit looks really nice, love the retro feel to it. Definitely has the old adidas German vibes in there, fitting given our recent record in penalty shootouts.

05 May 2024 14:31:32
Has it been officially confirmed that it is next season's 3rd kit. I hope it is, as it does look awesome.

05 May 2024 15:09:26
I’m not sure actually MH as it hasn’t been put out by the club. If true I prefer this as the away kit with the blue cricket top as the third.

05 May 2024 15:19:21
Wazza,

I'm the same. Although I've seen another version on the potential blue which looks better.

I'm sure we will find out come the pre season tours.

06 May 2024 07:20:09
Never a big fan of collars on football shirts. They should have been retired 30 years ago in tribute to Cantona, nobody else could rock that look like Eric.

06 May 2024 12:01:40
I'm pretty sure that Adidas leak half a dozen potential kits each year to gauge fan opinion so they can eventually release one that they know the majority of fans like and will buy.

I'd imagine all the ones we have seen for the most part are potentially shortlisted options. Then depending on the feeling around each one we will get one that is pretty close to the most popular one.

05 May 2024 09:28:11
Sky reporting an email going round from SJR to employees about the lack of cleanliness and standards to be maintained at facilities.

Nice to see these levels of attitude coming from the top of the organisation. Hopefully it will filter throughout the club and a best in class attitude can start to be.

05 May 2024 12:10:49
Who is leaking these emails?

This is the 2nd in a row we’ve heard of. Whoever it is, hopefully they are one of the 200 let go because they clearly aren’t taking the changes seriously.

06 May 2024 00:50:43
Whenever there's a 'leak' that shines the top in a good light, the source is brighter.

06 May 2024 12:04:53
There are two kind of leaks. Those made by disgruntled or stupid individuals who can't keep their mouth shut.

Then there are those planned leaks, ones chosen by people at the club to illicit a certain response from the fans/ general public or to test public opinion.

The former need stamping out, the latter are just part of a business that runs on fan and public opinion.

04 May 2024 16:20:50
Burnley played us off the pitch at OT last week now they're getting thumped at home by Newcastle. Tells u all you need to know really.

04 May 2024 21:52:42
Tim how many times in the past 10 years have we said that opposition players want it more than our own?

Outfought and outworked. Life at Manchester United must be very easy for the players.

04 May 2024 23:41:25
Totally agree. And when they are told as much then they whine, sulk and complain! Hopefully this new culture being set by ineos bleeds through the whole club and team, god knows we need it to.

05 May 2024 08:23:27
Sounds like there will be a bit of a culture shock taking place, which should filter out those not willing to adapt.

05 May 2024 09:07:11
Exactly Tim, because in most cases their own contract will outlast the manager’s tenure.

03 May 2024 12:31:03
Just seen quotes from Klopp about the fixture schedule in this country and 12.30pm kick offs etc. I have to say, I agree with him, I remember when Sir Alex Ferguson questioned the fixture schedule regularly and this was going back 20 years or so. Certainly needs looking into IMO.

03 May 2024 14:41:02
I know its not going to go down well with match going fans but would much prefer a regular 8pm KO on Saturday than 12:30.

03 May 2024 17:53:39
DSG it’s going to become a more regular kickoff time from next season when the number of televised fixtures is released.

Personally I don’t like it as that’s the one time of the week where I don’t have any hassle, but I’d be very much in favour when I was younger when my weekends revolved around football.

04 May 2024 15:28:19
Imagine if they actually tried to help english teams succeed in Europe rather than setting them up every year to fail.

05 May 2024 10:30:37
I'm kind of on the fence about the playing schedule in the EPL.

On one hand it certainly doesn't help those teams playing in Europe. It's a tough schedule, that makes it feel like English clubs are playing with one hand tied behind their back. Even more so when other leagues have moved games and changes the schedule mid season to support their clubs playing in Europe.

It certainly feels like La Liga, Serie A and the Bundesliga actually want their clubs to perform well in Europe. While the EPL seems almost annoyed that their clubs play in a competition that rivals their own domestic league. It almost feels petulant the way they set up the schedule and seem totally unwilling to try and support the English clubs.

I totally understand managers like Klopp, and SAF previously, who bemoan the schedule, and I have sympathy with them over it. It places them in a tough spot of either having to prioritise one competition over another, or to risk player burn out by playing their best players in all competitions.

Either way they are likely to lose and have to face the media and fan backlash for it. It must feel like a damned if you do and damned if you don't situation.

However, on the other side the tough schedule for those teams completing in Europe almost certainly acts as a bit of a leveler within the EPL. Meaning top sides are more beatable to the bottom sides at certain points in the season. Making the league both more competitive, more balanced, and as such more entertaining.

You can argue that when La Liga changes the schedule to support Real Madrid or Barcelona in Europe that they are actually making their own league less competitive and working against the other 18 teams in the league. Certainly it brings in the question of bias from the organisation running the competition.

I wouldn't want the EPL to be run or set up to support the elite clubs over the rest, even if that meant my own club gained an advantage. It undermines the value of the competition, and is not fair play.

The answer as always probably lies somewhere between the two, with a compromise.

That could be that teams competing in Europe don't play in the league cup. Or as we have seen recently the idea of removing FA cup replays (something I don't like or agree with) . Or it could be that players have a cap on the number of first team minutes they can play per season for their club across all competitions. Done to protect players from burn out, and would be fair across all clubs. Although this would have to be something that was ultimately brought in by FIFA or UEFA across all European clubs. It would certainly be controversial and challenging to bring in. But then all compromises are as it requires both sides to concede something.

06 May 2024 07:10:57
Except it doesn’t act as a leveller does it? How often is the EPL champ someone who hasn’t been playing in Europe that season? Of those seasons, how often is it someone who isn’t a “top 4” team who failed to qualify for Europe that year?

The scheduling in UK is purely down to the greed of the broadcasters here in UK who pay all the money they do and therefore dictate which games are played when.

06 May 2024 12:35:32
Trueredman, ultimately the teams with the biggest budgets are able to build the best squads. These tend to be the teams that finish in the top four more often than not and they have the squads to rotate players with less of an impact on performance.

I didn't say it completely levels the playing field, but it certainly helps to make is a more level playing field, even if its still tilted towards certain clubs.

You tend to see that you have the top 2 or 3 sides who are really the ones competing for the league, you then have the next bunch of 4-5 sides who fight it out for a UCL place, with the next 2-3 sides who fight it out for a Europa league spot.

Typically the order changes depending on where a team is in its cycle. Are they at their peak, are they in deine or are they rebuilding their side.

For a team either in decline or in the rebuilding stage they can be knocked down a peg or two by those teams below them that are either in their peak or ahead in their rebuild. That tends to happen because a team that is in decline or in rebuild is stretched by the European schedule.

Ultimately that allows a smaller club the chance to step ahead for a season, compete in Europe, and reap the benefits both financial and in terms of prestige and ability to attract signings that comes with it.

Look at the table last year, United and Newcastle made UCL, Liverpool, West Ham and Brighton the Europa League and Villa the conference league.

United and Newcastle have struggled with the schedule and the demands and as such have dropped off this season allowing other clubs to climb above them.

Brighton, Villa and West Ham also got a chance to play in Europe.

Brighton and West Ham have struggled with the fixtures and as such have dropped off in the league. While Villa have done well in the conference league, in the semis now and in with a good shout of winning the competition.

Spurs, Villa and Chelsea look like they might be the beneficiaries as things stand. All clubs that were either in rebuild last season (Villa) and have continued to grow this season, or clubs who started a rebuild this season (Spurs and Chelsea) . In part their ability to climb the table and succeed this season is due to those teams completing in Europe this season struggling with the schedule which has impacted results in the league.

Like I said, it's not the only reason, but it certainly plays a part. Which is why we have more teams in England who have completed in Europe over the past 3 years than any other European league. It helps drive the competitiveness of the EPL and is part of what makes it such an entertaining league to watch. Ultimately there are very few sure thing fixtures, where you know who will win without a ball being kicked.

If you want to see whether it has an impact look at Man City's results this season. They're record in games following a European mid-week game are as follows: 5 Draws, 4 Wins and 1 Loss.

That's 13 points dropped following playing a European game.

They've only drawn 7 games all season, and lost 3.

Meaning 33% of their league losses have come after playing in Europe and 71% of the games they have drawn come after playing in Europe.

With a schedule that was more helpful to City you'd expect they would probably have won more of those games and as such would probably be several points clear at the top of the league.

So yes, I definitely feel that the EPL/ European schedule does act as somewhat of a leveler in the league.

06 May 2024 18:27:58
I would have more sympathy for these managers, if their clubs hadn't already planned pre-season tours all round Asia and America. Or when Pep gurns about the schedule, but refuses to use his subs 🤷‍♂️.

02 May 2024 19:41:51
If any of the Ed’s are around, just looking at the info given by ed002 and news coming out from various different places, it looks like we’re wanting at least 2 cbs, a full back, a midfielder (maybe 2) and a forward. The first choices seem to be Silva £60+ and Todibo £35m+ at the back, Ait Nouri £30m+ at left back, Neves £70m+ in midfield with maybe either Fofana £25m+ or Hjulmand £45m+ and then Olise £55m+ as the forward. Is there any way that this type of summer would be at all financially viable?

{Ed002's Note - putting aside the money these are all targets as I have explained.}

03 May 2024 10:03:34
I think Olise and Branthwaite will most definitely sign for us in the summer. Who else beyond that will depend on how well our new football structure do.

Who knows, me may finally get de Jong?!

03 May 2024 11:55:32
Lads, no brainer is that CB from Fulham. Rather than spend on Branthwaite.

03 May 2024 22:10:03
I'm with you angel, I'm not that convinced with Braithwaite, for the monet they want you want the finished article.

05 May 2024 11:09:40
Angel, I think we need a minimum of two maybe even three CB's this summer.

Varane and Evans are out of contract and won't be signing new deals.

Lindelof and Maguire are both not good enough to be first choice and both are out of contact in 2025, so entering the last year of their deal. Meaning this summer is the last chance to be able to sell either of them. Otherwise they either leave for free in 2025 or we have to offer them a new deal. I suspect it'll be a case of keep one and sell one.

Which leaves is with Martinez who has been injured all season, as well as the last couple of months of last season. That injury record raises two concerns over Martinez for next season. One can he come back at the same level as he was before the injuries, and two can he actually stay fit for a while season in the EPL.

Which just leaves the young lad Kambwala, who as well as being very inexperienced, also does extra warm up training to try and avoid injuries as he has suffered with them at youth level. That might be something he grows out of when he's finished growing and his body settles. Either way even if fully fit we shouldn't be relying on him to be a regular starter.

Which means we are at best starting next season with one first team quality CB who has serious questions over his fitness.

One or two (Maguire and Lindelof) that aren't good enough to be first choice, and are squad players at best. Maybe even none of both leave.

And a inexperienced kid who himself has struggled with injuries.

Ideal world I'd bring in three CB's, keep one of Maguire or Lindelof and send Kambwala out on loan for a season to get regular game time. That way he should hopefully be ready to return for the 2025/ 26 season and fight for a first team place, replacing either Maguire or Lindelof in the squad as they leave on a free. Meaning we don't have to dip back into the market again for another CB.

One CB this summer is not enough, we need two at a bare minimum, ideally three. Tosin Adarabioyo on a free makes sense as a squad option, and I wouldn't be against that. But we'd still need to sign at least one more CB along side him.

Branthwaite makes a lot of sense, is he perfect? Of course not, every player has their weaknesses. For Branthwaite it is a mostly a lack of experience. His weaknesses should reduce as he develops as a player.

While his positives are numerous, EPL proven, counts towards our homegrown quota, left footed but still comfortable playing at RCB as well as LCB as he's fairly two footed, capable of playing in a high line and/ or covering in the wide areas, good in the air, strong in the tackle, has very good reading/ understanding of the game for such a young and inexperienced player, has leadership qualities, and has shown he is willing to move outside of his comfort zone to push him when he made the decision to go on loan in another country (something very few English players do, especially when so young) .

He wouldn't be cheap, but like John Stones at City he is the kind of player who we could sign and he'd be the centre piece of our defence for most of the next decade. He has the highest ceiling of any of the young English CB's in the EPL.

While there is a suggestion that Everton might be forced to lower their asking price, or even accept a deal involving Maguire maybe, as they have to raise funds for PSR before the 1st of July.

I wouldn't be against signing Branthwaite at all, and even the small mistakes he has occasionally made this season don't put me off as they are all coachable and things that improve with experience. Which you have to accept when looking at young players.

Ideally we'd get Branthwaite, Adarabioyo and a third maybe Todibo or someone similar.

This season has been torn apart due to injuries, particularly in defence. This is the area along with defensive midfield where we need to do the most work this summer and need to make the most signings.

Yeah we probably need a couple of new full backs, and yes we definitely need cover/ competition at CF for Højlund, and yes we could probably do with another wide/ creative player as well. But it is the heart/ base of the team that needs the most work. Until we have a solid foundation everything else will be built on sand.

Our priorities this summer should be:

CB
CB
CDM
CF
CB
CM/ CDM
LB
Winger
RB

Obviously not all can be done, and we should probably look to be clever and savvy with our signings where possible. Like signing a player like Tosin Adarabioyo as our 3rd CB on a free for example. I'd also consider a deal for someone like Jonathan David as a backup striker to Højlund as he is capable of playing wide left or right. It wouldn't necessarily have to be David, but a flexible forward capable of playing right across the front time and being creative would be two birds with one stone. I'd also consider bringing in Danny Welbeck on a free along side someone like that. He could be that third choice back up, and he brings a connection to the club and a experienced option. Similar to Evans this season.

We need a first choice CDM, but maybe the second midfielder we sign is more of a gamble, someone who maybe comes from outside of the top European leagues. Lots of talent, but less proven and as such cheaper. Someone like André from Fluminense could be a good option, reportedly available for less than 20m. If he doesn't adapt to the EPL we could probably sell him to a club in Italy or Spain for at least as much as we paid for him, probably more. He'd be a fairly risk free option due to his low fee but high potential.

It's signings like that we need to make alongside a few higher priced, more proven players who can slip straight into the team.

05 May 2024 13:59:32
A CB, LB, CM and RW change this team completely.