Manchester United Banter Archive May 13 2019

13 May 2019 22:23:30
{Ed's Note - AJH has posted a new article entitled, Are Manchester United Fans' Emotions Clouding Their Views?

13 May 2019 23:11:01
AJH - A lot will depend on recruitment pal. In my opinion 3-4 good players in the right areas might just buy Ole some time to try and stabilise and then re-build. If we're going for raw, inexperienced, youngsters it will be worse than 6th and crisis by Christmas. I have no problem in that approach but you need to build from a position of strength and throwing youngsters into the breach and expecting them to rescue us from this malaise under intense pressure and media scrutiny is a recipe for disaster in my opinion. It might be what we need for the future but if they don't get results they won't get the time to develop and mature. It could spiral into a almighty mess.

I genuinely believe this could be the beginning of the end for the Glazers this summer will prove crucial.

13 May 2019 23:25:41
Good post Tony.
I understand your still banging the blame jose drum for a lot but as you say their are more layers of problems than a Spanish onion.
Chelsea and madrid both won the league or cl after jose left they were good sides that he fell out of love with and lost control. Just like he did with united. But our players many of them now have been below average finishing 6th 3 times in 6 years under 4 managers. They are simply below the standard required to compete at the top level.
We do have some good individuals but as a collective they are a toxic bunch. There are a few that are just useless too. Rojo jones valencia young are a hinderance to any squad for one reason or another.

13 May 2019 21:54:08
I really thought the Darren Fletcher thing was a joke. Sly now reporting it. I hope they go for someone with experience.

13 May 2019 20:55:20
{Ed's Note - DLIB has posted a new article entitled, Did Ed Woodward Make His Biggest Ever Mistake Appointing Ole Gunnar Solskaer As Manchester United Manager

13 May 2019 21:13:32
Great post DLIB. Can’t argue with any of that.

13 May 2019 21:44:37
DLIB

You might also consider that if rumours come true and Woodward appoints an ex player like Fletcher as Technical Director I think the club have lost all credibility. It means there will be two people to sack next Christmas, when it all falls to pieces.

13 May 2019 22:29:45
It already has lost what it had and I just think Woodward is digging his own grave by appointing Rio or Fletcher.

13 May 2019 23:01:28
I do not know what is expected of a technical director but I can say that whenever I have heard Darren Fletcher speak on TV he talks sensibly. He seems to have a reasonable appreciation of the game both as an ex player and now as an observer. He also knows the work ethic necessary for any player to wear the Utd shirt and thrive. Maybe he woukd not be such a bad appointment.

13 May 2019 23:34:11
Red Man - I can see this all starting to unravel. You've been around long enough to know how it goes.

In general this is a very average squad, devoid of leaders, littered with some talented youngsters and some star players but lacking the required attitude and application looking for a way out!

The noises coming from the Club are we will look to recruit younger, less experienced, raw players with potential and look to develop them ourselves. Unfortunately we need these players in the team now. They won't be afforded the time to grow and develop. We've seen the likes of Depay and Zaha shipped out recently. It's taken Shaw nearly 5 years to show any kind of form and Martial is no more consistent than the day we bought him. It's a policy which requires faith and patience for which we have neither.

Fans become disillusioned, attendances ebb, revenue plummets and our Club debt laden becomes unsustainable.

This is a massive summer we must recruit 3-4 excellent players in the right positions then we can look to a change in recruitment once the team has some stability Massive summer ahead.

14 May 2019 06:33:25
DLIB

Yes I have seen the ebbs and flows over more than 50 years supporting the club. We haven’t heeded our own history. The club needs new direction, new fresh ideas yet looks and harks back to the past. Whoever it may be as a technical director, what is the point if they have no authority to change things, or have the knowledge of what excellent in that role looks like. If I am honest it looks like a barrier added by the decision makers to deflect blame from them, but what do I know

I saw Wilf McGuiness appointed, lovely chap by the way, but the club just couldn’t see what it was doing wrong from there. Looks like it is happening again and I suspect we could be in for a rough ride.

13 May 2019 18:41:57
Not so much a rumor, but I'm really lost trying to guess what might have gone so badly wrong since Ole's blistering start. Some of the football we played was so good that I find it hard to put it down to the "new manager bounce" going down. My best guess is that we dicked around with some key players contracts (and some players and their agents in turn dicked around with the club), which basically led to complete destruction of the dressing room. Either that, or we completely lost all steam due to a lack of fitness, but the sudden fall seems odd to explain with the second theory. Any guesses/ insights?

13 May 2019 19:04:41
Not enough talent. 6th 3 times in 6 years under 4 managers.
Too many poor attitudes.
Players over achieved against poor sides in that good run ok we beat spurs in the league but good battered for 80 mins and arsenal and chelsea in the cup. They were on a high after jose leaving.
Over a sustained period for all 4 managers the players have always failed.
Some are good individually but we had a toxic mix in our dressing room that meant they could never gel.

13 May 2019 19:12:52
I recall Matic and Herrera getting injured, which not only was a loss with those two out, but also meant less stability in the midfield, and less attacking freedom for Pogba.

13 May 2019 20:42:17
Never Gonner make it.

13 May 2019 22:25:34
The Liverpool game was the turning point for me. Maybe Solskjaer realised the team was unfit as f. Since then it just feels like they’ve gone back to Mourinhos tactics. Also think the Herrera injury was a loss.

13 May 2019 10:00:26
Morning. A question for any of the Ed's or anyone who may have any knowledge or idea. After Mourinho's comments, during and after his time with us alluding to the running of the club and more recently, Gary Neville's honest and rather damning verdict of the clubs hierarchy, is there any indication that the club IS looking to make the drastic changes required to get the club moving forward again? I don't mean appointing Rio or whoever in as DoF or whatever role just for the sake of having that position at the club or relying on a Saudi Prince to buy us or whatever the papers wish to report.

I suppose I want to know are people involved with the running of the club aware of what needs to change or are they happy to keep bumbling along as a business rather than a Football Club?

{Ed002's Note - The club will look to improve. The underlying problems were caused by the tixic fans and the club kowtowing to them. This has been explained in the apst.}

13 May 2019 13:21:29
Are the club aware that they made a mistake in kowtowing to the fans? And if so, will they be sure not to do so again?

{Ed002's Note - Yes the club are aware.}

13 May 2019 14:42:51
Must have burned a lot of bridges and lost a lot of credibility in the market when we pulled out of the Allegri deal Ed?

{Ed002's Note - A major mistake.}

13 May 2019 15:56:55
Of course they list credibility. They made a commitment and backed out it because they didn't have the courage of their convictions. Personally I think Allegri would've been another mistake, I don't think he was the right fit. But we'll never know. Certainly couldn't have been any worse.

My question is though, if they're aware they made a mistake in bending to fan opinion what are they doing to avoid a repetition? The fans backed the players over the manager twice. And as we've seen the last few weeks there's a proportion on here already heading that way again. So will there be an effort to move on the bad eggs in the dressing room?

{Ed002's Note - There will be players coming and going this summer.}

13 May 2019 16:57:54
Honest question: is the factor of the toxic fanbase based on behavior at Old Trafford, or online? I hear about mostly positive support from the fans at Old Trafford. But the nature of social media lends itself to fans venting their frustrations online. It's an outlet for angry fans, whether or not it is healthy, helpful, or constructive in any way. It also may be a very unrealistic gauge.

{Ed002's Note - It has been done to death.}

13 May 2019 17:07:36
It'll be the online fanbase.

13 May 2019 17:13:31
And most of them fans couldn't name the the last 11 that started a game for united, some of the stuff I see is laughable, they are clueless.

13 May 2019 17:14:35
The Glazers had thick skin during the green and gold campaign. But fans unhappy at the results over a rough period with LvG made them pull out of two transfers and bin a plan that would see the club through to 2022. Utter nonsense from the club. They moved the goalposts for whatever reason and used the excuse of "toxic" fans.

13 May 2019 18:40:16
Mumbles, I think ed has referred to them as toxic fans.

13 May 2019 19:35:15
I agree with mumbles what clowns are in charge if they changed there plans because of the fans.


We panicked when pep went city. Woodward crumbled and gave into the pressure of trying to be the biggest team in Manchester.


And now ex players like fletcher and Rio are being thought about for the dof role.


Utter embarrassment.

We will all be having the same conversations at xmas. Ole will prob be put of a job because he won't be given time or backed to make changes and we will ne back to square 1.

13 May 2019 21:24:43
They had an agreement with Allegri in place and then didn't have the backbone to see it through after a difficult period with LvG. They needed a reason to call off the deal in place with Allegri so they put out the "sorry mate, we can't wait around 18 months for you because the toxic fans are are outside with pitchforks".

They used the fans as a poor excuse to put out of a deal with him.

13 May 2019 19:12:00
Its possibly the fans that have held season tickets for the last 30 yeqrs or so who are probably close with the a number of high end mployees in Manchester United.

I think these are the type of fans that have voiced their opinion but i could well be wrong.

13 May 2019 07:50:45
Hows this for showing our decline.
Points difference between Man City and Man Utd – last 4 seasons
2015-16 0
2016-17 Man City +9
2017-18 Man City +19
2018-19 Man City +32
and we finished more points off the top this season than we did when we were relegated.
The only common denominator in our decline is Woodwood, he needs removing from all football matters.

13 May 2019 08:08:20
It doesn't make for good reading. However, we should also accept that Man City have in the last two seasons set the two highest ever points totals in a season. That is unlikely to continue.

13 May 2019 11:26:24
So maybe getting rid of lvg and bringing in mourinho was the wrong thing to do in hindsight?

Certainly looks that way.

13 May 2019 13:35:17
I would say so. We are three years on from that now, when we could have been about to enter the third year with Allegri as Manager. Things might have gone differently, we might not be at the point os needing a total rebuild, we might have avoided some of the less than great signings of the last three seasons. But then we might not have won the League cup and the Europa League.

13 May 2019 16:09:05
Its one of the great what ifs. Personally I'm not convinced Allegri was the right man. I think he'd have had the same issues van Gaal had and Jose exacerbated. Maybe not to the extent Jose had, as different players would've been brought in. I also think the fans would've still turned on him to to the style of play.

13 May 2019 20:12:20
The problems occurred before Mourinho, there was no plan for SAF retirement. It is unbelievable that a major corporate also allowed another key senior member in Gill to go at the same time. We didn’t learn from Busbys retirement and paid the price since then, for a lack of plan and lack of leadership.

12 May 2019 23:38:21
It's hard not to be despondent whilst watching Utd over the past few months. It's hard to look for positives when not many exist.

When you are reliant upon a 17 year old debutant (no matter how talented) to provide the spark and attacking intent for one of the Worlds most successful football Clubs it's hard not to despair. Poor Mason Greenwood carried the hopes and expectations of 75 000 excited Utd fans this afternoon, to his credit he nearly delivered but the level of hope and anticipation for his eagerly awaited debut was an unfair burden to heap upon his young shoulders. He was well supported by the crowd eager to see him succeed but I couldn't help thinking how long this would last if he was afforded regular game time next season if things hadn't improved.

I've read the rumours linking us with Daniel James and the same applies to him. This team is completely devoid of direction and leadership. What it needs is at least 4 players that can come into the first 11, hit the ground running and improve it not raw youngsters expected to carry the expectations of millions of fans around the world.

I hear the argument about recruiting talented youngsters, nurturing and developing them, turning them into stars but this takes time and patience and we still need to win football matches whilst these young players learn the game. This policy is fine when the team is littered with an array of world class talent and experienced internationals but we'll need these young lads to make an immediate impact.

The Club must dig deep this summer, now is not the time to seek the new Ronaldo. We must recruit at least four players (CB, RB, CM, RW) capable of improving the starting 11 because if we don't we'll be looking for our 4th manager in 7 seasons. Mediocrity presides for how long nobody knows but if the evidence of the last few weeks is any kind of barometer things could get a lot worse before they get better. Having said that things can change quickly in football and if the right players come in anything can happen.

Have a great summer guys and don't read the papers it will only drive you mad!

Thanks to the Ed's as always for their dedication and hard work and for providing us with a platform to vent our frustrations and discuss all things Utd. We'll never die!

13 May 2019 08:31:23
DLIB, Great post, but I am going to have to disagree with you.

We screwed up when we appointed Moyes, that was when our squad was littered with old heads and proven winners, leaders. Vidic, Ferdinand, Evra, Carrick, RvP, Rooney and Fletcher.

That was when we should have been signing the best young talent in the world, and even in the couple of seasons prior to that.

Then they could have had 2-4 seasons with the old guard, to learn from, and to be moulded by. Two seasons later and they are all bar one or two gone and the chance had been missed.

We have seen over our history and not just recently but over the last 30 years that parachuting experienced players in just doesn't work, or at least more often than not.

Buying players with experience of other clubs often in other countries isn't directly relevant to us and our situation.

How many world class, experienced players have experience of moving to a club that needs rebuilding from the ground up? With no one for guidance, no reference point. Few if any, how many of that few have experience of doing in the high pressured, high expectancy of a club such as ours?

We bring that type of player in and we peg the burden of expectation clearly on their shoulders. You don't have to just live up to your fee, or your reputation. You have to carry the entire future of the club on your shoulders, and do so while you adapt to a new team, a new league and a new culture, possibly with limited understanding of the language.

It won't work. We have tried time and again since Sir Alex retired to bring this sort of player in, and they have all folded under the pressure. Flourished elsewhere, but not in the powder keg that is the post Sir Alex Old Trafford.

What we need is a clearing of the deck, rip out the weeds and start again. We need to lower the expectations for any players to be able to succeed. Removing the rot, bringing in young hungry players who can grow together, make mistakes, learn from them and improve.

We are now a 2-5 year project, depending how quickly we clear out those that need to go and how quickly we can bring in the right players and coaching staff. McKenna and Carrick could well be two of the most important people at the club. One has experience and knowledge of our young lads coming through, while the other knows what it takes to be a United player, and to over come adversity.

We need to tear in down and start again, although to be fair there isn't much left of the crumbling empire to tear down. The longer we try and hold on to the idea that we have a divine right to challenge for the league, the idea that with one or two player this squad will "click" the sooner we can actually start to rebuild.

Foundations first: Homegrown players with a connection to the club and the right attitude.

Then the walls, a set playing style, an identity.

Then the roof, the key world class players to elevate the team.

But none of this can be done until we clear the ground to start the rebuild.

{Ed025's Note - a good read that shappy..

13 May 2019 08:49:16
Good post DLIB. I like it if we are targeting young, hungry, fit players who will give their all but also we need quality which if recruitment is correct they should have to play for United however we will also need some experience around them, Rashford, Greenwood leading our line looks great but they need help. In midfield with Herrera and possibly Pogba leaving we may have the likes of Periera and McTominay but we will need Matic to step up and probably sign an experienced midfield player. In defence Lindelof I like but he needs an experienced, commander next to him especially if AWB rumours are true. It’s a delicate mix of the right personality, right age, right quality, right experience and also we have to offload a number, a real big summer ahead, a project which could take 2/ 3 years. A DoF I feel is a must to oversee this project and us as fans need to get behind Ole wether we think he’s the thing man for the job or not and behind our squad which will be getting revamped. I know it’s frustrating, it feels like constant transition but one we must see through.

13 May 2019 08:53:37
And Shappy, a new manager who can command respect from the players and the fans alike. Not a "cheerleader" as the knowledgable Eds put it.

13 May 2019 09:01:33
Shappy, really interesting post. I don’t disagree. I guess the only thing to think about is how do you balance this approach with shareholders and sponsors who expect Manchester United to deliver now and not in 5 years time.

13 May 2019 10:18:53
United Addict, I have said Ole might not be the right man long term. However, you can't accurately judge anyone until you give them a chance. If a manager with Mourinho's experience couldn't win with these players then no one will.

Also What the club needs to do and what it can do under current circumstances are very different things. Until the right people are in place higher up, until we have someone who has the vision and the ability to create a plan for the footballing side, we are very much scrambling in the dark.

So what do we do in the mean time? We muddle on as best we can. Hopefully Ole can prove everyone wrong. If not then hopefully he can help the club maintain something of its old self until the right man can be found.

Personally I think the club needs a new structure, with more of a head coach than a manager. Have a Technical director who works creates the vision of the club, how the club should operate in a footballing sense. Then the club should be looking to the best young managers who have a style that suits that vision. Then work together to build a competitive team. However, the role of the technical director is to make sure the club stays true to that vision, making sure there is a continuity over the youth set up and the transfer policy. Avoiding the current situation where we have a squad made up of 3 different managers signings making it almost impossible to create any sort of cohesive team.

SD1, Well to start with we don't have to balance an approach with the shareholders, the vast majority of the club is owned by the Glazers, the rest isn't relevant to the conversation. Sponsors also won't be an issue. They will have deals that are tied until a certain date. Deals that expire while the club is under a restructure will either be renegotiated or other deals will be sought with other sponsors. I would imagine if potential sponsors did ask about the footballing side having a clear plan and seeing obvious progress would put their minds at ease. Although the only thing potential sponsors will worry about is the clubs potential reach, how many people watch and support the club. As long as droves of fans don't move away from the club and start supporting another side we will be fine on the sponsorship front.

13 May 2019 11:30:41
Hi Shappy, Yes, you are right. Good point. Do you feel Solskjaer has what it takes to oversee the summer surgery?

13 May 2019 12:13:20
SD1, I genuinely have no idea. I would like to think so, but then the Ed's suggest Ole will only have a limited impact on transfers. But then if that is the case, and Mourinho certainly wasn't happy with the clubs signings last summer, then it makes no difference who is the manager.

Personally, I feel this summer will be defined by who leaves the much more than who joins. If the club insist on keeping Pogba and don't clear the decks of the problem players then we will be doomed to repeat our mistakes and have another poor season next year. That will be more important than who we bring in.

13 May 2019 14:54:14
Shappy - spot on there. I took some comfort in the public use of the word rebuild by Solskjaer (who must be realising just what a big job he took on) . His comments also suggest those above him realise this too. Let’s hope that is the case and the garden gets weeded fast. It may be difficult to shift a few but they need to take a loss on some rather than slow down the rebuild.