Manchester United Banter Archive November 10 2017

10 Nov 2017 18:51:45
Evening guys - with nearly a quarter of the season gone already we have a clearer picture of how our season is panning out and I think a worrying trend is emerging.

If you look at our league goal scorers from our attacking players Lukaku has 7, Martial has 4, Rashford has 3 then Mata and Miki have one a piece.

I wrote a post last year commenting that unless we get more goals into the team we'll face similar problems to the ones we encountered last year. Lukaku has been an excellent signing and he's taken up the void left by Ibra, Martial and Rashford are young players and have undoubtedly improved but Miki and Mata have been poor. Miki has been given ample opportunities in his favoured No 10 position and consistently failed to delivery. Not only in terms of his creative and goal scoring output but I think his effort and work rate has been questionable as well. Pogba who has spent most of the season injured has two goals and Fellaini who has also been injured and an inconsistent starter has 3 goals, these are the stats which bring his role in the team into sharper focus.

In comparison Aguero has 8, Jesus 7, Sterling 7 and Sane 6. This is where the real difference lies.

We are so solid defensively and when we go in front we normally win. What we can't do anymore is chase a game and come from behind. I don't think this has anything to do with formation or style of play but emanates from a lack of consistency by our attacking players.

With this continuing to be a problem do you think there is any chance that we might see Ibra paired with Lukaku? Is there any chance we could play 4-4-2 now we have Matic to partner Pogba in midfield?

Unless we find another consistent goal scorer to support Lukaku our chances of the title remain slim and the prospect of getting dragged into a dog fight for top 4 become more of a reality.

10 Nov 2017 23:11:48
I think only city have scored more than us this season but them boys are on fire.

11 Nov 2017 09:21:35
Jred - we started well but the goals have dried up. We won't mount a serious challenge unless we can find at least one other consistent goal scorer to relieve some of the burden off Lukaku in my opinion. Could Ibra be that man or will he swap and change with Lukaku? I just can't see him sitting on the bench when he gets back to full fitness especially with Miki going through the motions.

11 Nov 2017 10:50:27
Danny
So are you judging us over the the 11 games we have played in the league scoring 23 goals plus the CL games where we have scored 10 in 4 games .
So 33 in 15 games

Or just the games we haven't played well.

11 Nov 2017 11:26:35
Forget the goals. What games have we played well in? West Ham we played well. Spurs we played decent. We had a 15 minutes spell in Swansea match. We have scored goals, but we haven't been playing well. City have been playing very good football all season thus far and goals have been scored.

We have done okay up until now, but we have to improve otherwise Spurs, Chelsea and potentially Liverpool if they put a few wins together will overtake us. I'm not concerned at this time, not at all as I think we will be okay, but we haven't played well all season. We've have moments and we've ground out boring wins.

11 Nov 2017 13:06:07
Jred - I'm judging over the 11 games as I can see a similar pattern emerging. Unfortunately apart from Lukaku nobody has really stepped and supported him on a consistent basis. Rashford and Martial have dovetailed nicely and have improved on last season but Miki and Mata have disappointed.

As you know I'm a Jose fan and think he's doing a good job. I think we're heading in the right direction but until we get a player that can take the pressure off Lukaku and get upwards of 15 league goals I don't think we'll be Champions.

For example City have Jesus and Aguero, Spurs have Kane and Ali, Chelsea had Costa and Hazard, they now have Morata, even Leicester had Vardy and Marahez.

We don't have that second player yet and that's why although we scored games in the first 5-6 games they've dried up now as we lost Pogba, Lukaku had a dip, nownody else stepped up and results have suffered.

12 Nov 2017 09:33:48
At least 1 of Rashford or Martial will get 15 this season, and they Don't always play. Pogba and probably Mata will get 10. Shouldn't be a problem.

10 Nov 2017 09:38:33
Some good debates lately, just to add my penneth on a new thread, most have heard it before.

So some want Jose out when we are second in the league, stats second best only too a City team who are on a different level atm, we've breezed thru our CL group, well on our way to defending our league cup, what more do fans really want?

We'd all have ripped peoples arms off to be in this position during and after Moyes era and now we've one of the best managers around and we wanna see the back of him.

Granted, the last month it's not been great, we have just come thru a spell that included Liverpool and Chelsea away with spurs in between, we always lose at Chelsea under any management, does Jose look unhappy yes but he's always had this scowl, does he play negative against the top 6, yes but we knew this before he came, we all wanna see free flowing football which has happened particularly earlier on in the season but we are only 11 games in, let's just see how the season pans out.

Some saying we've spent x amount of millions, yeah that's true but what do you expect will happen if the manager changes again, can't just keep chopping and changing managers and back room teams and then of course players as yet another manager will bring yet mot instability and yet more upheaval and more spending and then what a year into the new gaffers regime, what would be good enough?
We'd surely have to be top and scored more goals and be playing as City are now to have had any improvement which is a big ask considering we've had one of our best starts in PL history.

Someone said forget the Fergie days and even tho we should embrace our traditions Fergie is the past, we can't keep comparing people to this great. It happened after Busby and he hung around and cast a shadow so large nobody could step out of it, I fear history is repeating slightly.

Let's all just give the guy til the end of the season and if he's failed to improve us then yes questions must be asked, our fixtures are better upcoming so a chance for momentum again and Pogba is back, 27 games to catch City yet, who knows we may win the CL 😉.

10 Nov 2017 09:57:59
Great post WRD some perspective. It’s a long seasons let’s get pogba back and see what happens. I remember back when city won the league for the first time and we were 8 points behind and we were determined to catch them. We did and although we ended up losing to the Aguero goal, the fans and players knew we could catch up. It’s only November and although city have been class, there’s no reason why we cannot catch them. Let’s just get behind the team AND manager and see what happens.

10 Nov 2017 09:58:16
WRD is adding sanity to what's been an insane few weeks.

10 Nov 2017 10:15:34
Are there really that many people wanting Jose sacked?
We have spent x amount of millions, is this not an example of how various managers have been backed and a sign of the ambition of the club?

2nd in the league top of our CL group and we need a new manager, 9 new players and a club that shows more ambition, spending more than 99% of of the teams out there just isn't enough .
Jose out the board out all the players sold .
Can't imagine why United fans get a bad name at times .
Are things really that bad?
Are things really that bad, or is this what it is like supporting a team that doesn't have the comfort blanket of fergy .
No guarantee that we are going to win something .
No guarantee that the manager will turn it round .
Different managers coming and going .

Welcome to life after fergy, in the same boat as every other fan now .
Bit scary eh.

10 Nov 2017 10:27:45
Good post WRD.

10 Nov 2017 11:02:56
Very good post also from jred.

10 Nov 2017 11:22:56
I'd just add this point which people tend to just shrug about.

Man City - everyone is loving how they play (from a neutral perspective), but if you go through their team it isn't that special really. Or at least those same players a year or two ago weren't deemed as special, bar a couple of exceptions. It's the way they play that is making them look special.

So my point is this - are they that good, or is everyone else that bad? And as an aside how much is it down to the manager, (almost everything is my thinking) .

It's too easy to dismiss the point that City look lightyears ahead of us. Why are they, they shouldn't be with players like, Otamendi, Stones, Delph, even Kyle Walker, they were laughed at a while ago, Sterling is another one? We have a lot of obvious holes in our squad, but if Pep took over Utd tomorrow and Jose went to City, would anybody be surprised if Utd ended up winning the league and City slipping down the table?

I don't like Pep when I hear him speak, I also don't particularly like Jose - but watching the two teams play are like chalk and cheese. And please don't give me the "it takes time" line, because I heard all that for LVG and people like Ranieri, Conte and Pep himself prove it's BS. Jose isn't a builder anyway, he is all about instant and unsustainable success.

I'm all for giving time to people if they show the right signals. I'd love to see a manager take the attacking threat we pose and build on it, not neuter it. Monaco manager or Poch, are the two I'd try if Jose does what I expect and leave this Christmas.

10 Nov 2017 11:28:35
I don't want him out and I don't think things are that bad. My issue is I don't think his heart is in it and we have very good players playing poorly.

10 Nov 2017 11:36:04
Great post WRD.
As I’ve mentioned many times there will always be negative sentiments. If we score we don’t score enough. If we win we don’t win enough. If we win PL we didn’t win CL. No matter what there will always something somehow somewhat. There will always be people who feels if we don’t win every title there is to win we are not good enough.
I didn’t like Jose before but I think he will bring us on the path to glory days. Mind you he already got us winning something and yet people are whining 😂. I suggest as you WRD let him do his job and we judge him end of season. I am sure he puts pressure off n himself already with this high profile job and don’t need us to poop on him. He is more stressed from his reputation as a deliverer and we need to get behind him. I am embarrassed by the fact that people are calling to see his back when he just delivered silverwares when even City or Pool had nothing. Gosh I am flabbergasted. Give the guy a break and support OUR MANAGER.

10 Nov 2017 11:41:28
Beast and ajh make a good point .
People going on about us needing to buy xyz . City are flying playing the best footy in Europe with players many on here have done nothing but slag off .
We are 2nd in the league at the moment with a lot of players and the team going through a dip in form .
Imagine if we where playing well .

Jose would be the best thing since slice bread because he was doing his job well . What's the other side of that?

If we where playing well and scoring 4 goals every game people would still want us to buy another 9 players tho.

10 Nov 2017 11:50:15
I don't know about your last point Jred. After that West Ham game everybody thought we were the real deal, nobody suggested any changes/ improvements.

We do lack in full back and on the wing, it is undeniable. We do have to ask serious questions about Mata, Miki, Rash, Martial, Lingard, Herrera and Lukaku - why are they so hit and miss?

Those attacking players (discount Herrera) have a lot of ability, (not taken much on Lingard personally but others love him) . I can't help but think they are being wasted and a more attack minded manager would have us scoring more than 4-5 goals a game. Maybe we'd ship a few more, but we have DDG, Matic, Pogba, Bailly down the spine that are world class imo and so is Jones when fit.

10 Nov 2017 13:26:47
I'm not sure if there being wasted but I'm sure they could all play better .
4.0 up against West ham and the main convo on the live chat was which players we should buy .
But that's getting off the point, look at the list of players you have named above, lot of talent there.

10 Nov 2017 14:48:40
When have we ever scored 4-5 a game beast, please tell me. Pipedream if you ask me.

I think we are doing fine, in fact better than fine. Don't jumping on the managers back.

Great post WRD.

10 Nov 2017 18:32:41
I've never Wanted jose sacked but did say he'd playing mostly dire football and if he wants PSG move he should go, don't want anyone at Utd whose doesn't want too be there no matter whose or how good they are, we've not seen the charismatic jose of old and stilli say he's a grumpy sod 😊.

10 Nov 2017 18:44:29
Agree with Beast. The way Pep has transformed City and the way we continue to struggle against good teams does not bode well.
We are playing predictable football but we do have the personnel to play a lot better.
Whose fault is this? Well, the manager has to take the majority of the blame.

10 Nov 2017 18:52:29
People know my position, I am fully behind Jose. I lived through the Busby transition so appreciate the challenges that the managers faced. Jose is who should have been appointed after SAF.

We won two major trophies last season and that is brilliant, unheard of. We are only in November and there is a long way to go this season, if there was a time to have a so called bad patch it is now.

My last thought is that I hope the club are using Jose’s experience at major clubs to look at the structure, the youth set ups and setting future plans. We need to have a plan for when Jose leaves, it creates a mess if we rip out the staff every time there is a change. Now is not the time to change.

10 Nov 2017 18:58:23
Before anyone comments unheard of in a managers first season.

10 Nov 2017 21:04:45
Jose = Born winner 😆😆.

10 Nov 2017 23:08:32
Conte win the league in his first season .
Not sure Jose is the right man to set up our youth system, not sure it's a strong point.

10 Nov 2017 23:13:49
He is the special Juan.

11 Nov 2017 07:35:49
Jred

The Chelsea youth seem to be very successful even if they are loaned out. Jose may or may not not have had input into setting that up or improving it but he will know how they work.

Conte inherited the Champions from 12 months before who still had a very effective team, unlike what SAF left and Jose inherited a depleted disorganised team, who whilst won the FA Cup were nowhere near a top team. I am referring to United managers winning in their first season.

11 Nov 2017 07:59:35
I must have missed the part where Pep moved to City and win loads of trophies?
Oh wait - He’s won nothing there. They’ve played well so far this season, largely down to KDB’s amazing form. Nobody can sustain it all season, their defence is very shaky and once they lose a few we shall see how good they are.

11 Nov 2017 10:51:00
Eric

It’s about City’s infrastructure, their plans for world domination, their youth set up, even their social media aims to catch us up, yes really! Take a good look at what they are doing. If we sit with our heads in the sand as we seem to be doing, they will overtake us, it’s just when. That could happen sooner than people realise. I hope it doesn’t happen but if our manager, one of the best in the world walks away because he isn’t convinced by the ambition of our club and at the same time City win a major prize like the league or CL then I would suggest it’s a watershed moment. A moment I do not want to see but I can’t see obvious planning at OT, the ground has been the same for years. If reports were right the club quibbled about the cost of changes to the training ground and the pitch. Hotel football arrived and the owners hadn’t thought of it or didn’t want to spend money doing it. Whilst we seem to keep costs down City have been aggressive. Maybe they won’t be as popular but people are fickle so if they win people will follow. I just think Utd fans need to wake up and see where our club is and hope they do have a plan better than is visible. Maybe the club needs to communicate better but that isn’t new.

11 Nov 2017 10:53:18
Jose had very little to do with Chelsea youth policy I am amazed not surprised your trying to credit that to him now .
Conte took over a team that finished 10th in the league.

11 Nov 2017 11:04:36
I get your point Red Man, but City needed to change drastically to catch up, and have made a lot of good progress and this is easiky noticed. The fact is the changes needed at Utd are not wholesale and huge so we notice it less.

11 Nov 2017 11:40:47
Jred

I suggest you read my point again, I am not trying to credit Jose, my point was he knows how it is set up and we should look at what he knows.

Conte took over a team that 12 months earlier were champions but the players downed tools, then they had no European games to distract them.

11 Nov 2017 12:46:06
I get the distinct impression that José could really care less about our youth policy and infrastructure. Why go to all that trouble, when he's only going to be here for three years?

11 Nov 2017 12:53:13
Isn't the LVG philosophy about to pay dividends with our youth system imminently?

11 Nov 2017 15:03:19
Beast

Youth have a lag time of about 8-10 years from what I understand so it will take time to appear.

10 Nov 2017 04:56:50
It amazes me how the same people that backed LVG to the hilt despite his obvious unsuitability, are now doing the exact same with Jose because of a slight improvement in league position. And some miss-placed loyalty, a manager should earn the fans loyalty not demand it for simply signing a contract for mega bucks and looking like they hate every second of being here.

Give anybody with half a brain hundreds of millions to spend and they will show some sort of improvement. It seems to me that a lot of fans are setting the bar too low, they are judging Man Utd on what Moyes and LVG did to the club and then giving Jose some free pass for slightly improving on that period.

The board got two appointments very wrong (Moyes and LVG), why is it so difficult to believe that they got a third one wrong? We aren't in these interviews or part of that decision making process, but I could tell by watching the melt down at Chelsea under Jose that were taking a huge risk - from the get-go things have looked weird with Jose at Utd, everything about his demeanor seems like he is here for all the wrong reasons.

We won a couple of cups last season that 5 years ago wouldn't have even registered on our radar, we act like they were some great success - look at who we played and how we played in those cups! We would have been playing our reserves in those cups under SAF, like most other elite teams do, not virtually a full strength team. Even Burton fielded their reserves against us this season!

Jose has been backed to the hilt, maybe he wanted more and didn't get it, so what he had more than almost anybody else and we look like we are going backwards fast at the minute! My advice is to ignore all the spin and hear-say in the media and just watch the games and the man, it isn't right. PSG could do us a massive favour here, the fans need to realise the grass we are standing on isn't even green, it's more a light brown!

10 Nov 2017 06:35:01
Ok Beast. Take out Jose and bring in who? Besides Ancelloti i see no one with the pedigree to be a Manchester United manager in the current turmoil. Before you give me Poch, kindly enlighten me on his achievements to be able to be considered for the highest job in the football world.

10 Nov 2017 07:22:32
Here we go again.
Beast, you are entitled to your opinion, but I will stick with mine. It was always going to take around three years to to undo the damage and correct years of inadequate investment in the squad. I think you just have to forget the money largely wasted by Moyes and LVG.

As regards the vast sums being shelled out now, José is playing catch-up in a vastly inflated market so comparisons are re not like for like.

I expect that while results have improved overall when injuries are not an issue, realistically we may not see a real change in style until the squad begin to settle down until early next season after the summer transfer window.

Chill Beast the money spent is not affecting your personal bank balance.

10 Nov 2017 07:27:57
Like many, people are still living in this "fergie" mentality dream.

Times have changed people need to stop living in the past and constantly comparing to Fergie.

Judge the manager at the end of the season not 11 games in


Jesus.

10 Nov 2017 08:02:25
I disagree with this comment Shan, I'm fed up of the whole it takes a certain pedigree to manage united, we have tried that now, van gaal will sort this mess out. mourinho will fix this shambles. who cares if poch hasn't won anything? He's clearly a top class coach. If Zidane can go managing Real Madrid without winning anything, and conte can go to juventus without winning anything, then why does it matter about pedigree?
Beast is absolutely spot on, we celebrated winning a trophy that we mocked Liverpool for getting to the final of the previous year.

10 Nov 2017 08:30:02
Mac it's a good post that.
Also why are we in turmoil we are making money, spending money great fan base the club us in a great position.
Look at the mess conte took over at Chelsea then won the league.

10 Nov 2017 09:46:20
I’m confused why people keep saying we are turmoil. People seem to forget what’s happened and just judge us on the last game, West Ham are in turmoil, Everton are struggling with Europa league and the league like we did last year, they are in turmoil. We are 4/ 4 in champions league and 2nd in the prem, a lot of clubs would pay a lot to be in this kind of turmoil.

10 Nov 2017 09:46:30
Agree with Bolger here. As hard is it is to take we are no longer the dominant force in the league. All our rivals have strenghtened and have top class managers and the league is stronger than it has ever been. Our era of dominance was always going to have to end sometime. That does not mean we should not have ambitions to win. But times are different now and we have no right to win. The 3 years of Moyes and lvg set the club back light years in footballing sense. Jose has inherited a falling giant and whilst he has not been his charismatic self, he’s done a decent job to get us to where we are. I agree with beast his demeanour has not been Jose of old and if he goes then I do not think it would be the end of the world. But whilst he’s here he has my full backing and that’s all we can give as fans. Let’s support the team that we all love and see how the season pans out. Let’s just enjoy it guys because come May we could be sitting here a few trophies.

10 Nov 2017 10:05:01
Agree whole heartedly with GDS2 and bolger.

10 Nov 2017 11:03:17
Does anyone else get the feeling that since José has arrived, his stay has always felt, I don't know, a bit temporary, as if he's only passing through. I want to feel attached to my manager, and see that his heart is in it. I just don't get that with José. I still think he's doing ok, and at least setting us out on the right track again. I just still can't see him as OUR manager, every time I see him in the dugout, or in interviews. This is just a rambling personal opinion, but the whole thing just feels a little transient, from the staying in a hotel, to the flirting with PSG. I want to love the guy, but he's making it very difficult.

10 Nov 2017 11:12:33
It's nuts, we are obviously not in turmoil .
People are making it out to be the impossible job .
All this talk of the club being in a mess, it will take years to turn it round, we need a big rebuild?

We are second in the league, the club looks set up to be successful imo.

10 Nov 2017 11:24:34
GdS you only have to read the posts on this page to understand the word "turmoil" mate. We are trying to put ourselves back in the league of champions.

10 Nov 2017 11:31:16
Definitely Stevie. It's like it was on his bucket list, but that bucket list was written a long long time ago and he has changed since then. I used to want to sleep with Pamela Anderson, now it lacks that appeal it once had!

He talked up the chance to manage Utd so much he kind of felt he had to do it when the opportunity presented itself, I can imagine a scene where he is drinking with SAF and gave his word of honour that he would take over when offered the job - he's now done what he promised and wants to move on. That's what it seems like anyway, the reluctant hero, Uthred son of Uthred.

He would probably see more of his family if he went to Paris, bet they would let him fly in and out of London every day and change training times to facilitate it.

10 Nov 2017 11:45:16
99
It's a different angle that, never mind is jose doing a good job, right man etc, does the bloke look happy?

Still living away from the family, Manchester is a bit different in lifestyle to Madrid or London.