Manchester United Banter Archive January 09 2020

09 Jan 2020 16:52:37
Well, we are at a low at the moment. I think it's clear even for the die hard stick by the manager fans like myself to say it's time to move on from Ole, probably a mistake to hire him full time anyway, a legend as a player but not the man to lead us.
Inept performances, it usually looks like a bunch of strangers have turned up on matchday and met each other for the first time most weeks, no plan except counter attack hoping something will come off, the players have not improved and there seems to he little direction from the management, I include Phelan and Carrick in this also.
Having said all that, a new manager will no doubt run into the same issues Jose did and LVG has mentioned, if the structure up above does not change will we be in thos same boat a year or so down the line.
Ed gets a lot of blame and rightly so but there are other people to point out, recruitment and negotiation has been poor and our injury record is appalling for years now, what is the deal with that, training?
I'm not sure how much will change with say Poch or Allegri coming in but I would say perhaps the players that are good, most notably AwB, Williams, McTominay, James, Rashford will get better with better coaching.
Players who are not of standard need moving on desperately and replaced, easier said than done when who is keen to come to us, a higher profile manager will attract players no doubt.
Still a big job on for someone but they need to be allowed to run the football side if things to the idea they have and this can only happen if the club stops running like a joke shop.
It says everything we need to know about where we are when I fully expect Norwich to go from OT with at least a point.
Anyway, rant over, come on the lads come saturday 3pm.

09 Jan 2020 13:40:29
Anyone else envisaging a repeat of the fellaini situation wih this whole ashley young saga? . can see us offering way over the top to keep him and then try and claim some moral victory.

09 Jan 2020 14:07:08
It won't happen. young will move on and club has recalled Brothwick jackson for his squad role of a covering full back. that's what i believe. He is surely moving on.

09 Jan 2020 14:18:25
I imagine the club have recalled Borthwick Jackson because he's not getting any game time where he is.

09 Jan 2020 14:54:49
Young is actually our 2nd best left back behind Williams plus he also plays right back. CBJ is nowhere near good enough to play for us he's been on loan at Tranmere Rovers for god sake.

09 Jan 2020 15:18:47
I think inter are paying money for young, we should take it.

Dalot, AWB, Shaw and Brandon for 2 spots.

Plus TFM, Rojo and Ethan Laird should be enough cover for fullback places.

Young is one of the better players but we need to get rid of deadwood and if we are getting money for it, it's a no brainier.

This season is doomed better start the clear out process now and maybe blood someone like Ethan Laird with 4-5 games till the end of season.

09 Jan 2020 15:45:49
What an impressively grim list of mediocrity Rohan.

09 Jan 2020 09:35:04
Interview with Andy Mitten, it's a very balanced and accurate analysis of everything going on with us currently.

09 Jan 2020 00:06:14
In my opinion last night was inevitable. The injuries, the weakness in the squad was obvious. Is ole becoming an issue? Yes, because he's making errors, but what's worse is yet again the fans have turned on another manager and the amateurs who run this football club get away with it.

I'm not having a go at anyone, because I agree it would appear ole is out of his depth, but being realistic will many do better? Look at what we had to pick from last night, he'll over the course of the season. Some of the players at this club are pathetic and almost cowardly in their performances. I lost count of the amount of times I saw Jones and De Gea argue and throw their hands up last night- and that was only when we had the ball. The two most experienced players on the pitch for us and they moaned like spoilt brats when a pass wasn't on. I don't even want to waste my energy typing anything about Lindelof.

There is no quick fix here, we can't just get Pochettino in, and automatically make top 4. The recruitment constantly fails, Ed002 told us all summer we wanted at least 5, we got a kid from Swansea who wasn't meant to be a regular and two good signings in AWB and Maguire. That was it. Not many managers can or will come back from that imo. We chased Fernandes and wouldn't pay, we now hear the links to Maddison. If we want him, pay the money. Remember the quote "we can do things no other club can in the transfer market" go and prove it then.

Big decisions need to be made very quickly. If they want Pochettino, pay the money that spurs apparently would be owed and get him in with a couple of signings. If you want to stick with ole, then make sure he gets a few signings in. I know it's not football manager, but we are nothing short of shambolic. I would almost guess we won't make a January signing due to uncertainty of ole's position.

Ole isn't good enough, and off course someone has to be blamed. I will refuse to blame a man who's only got the best interest of this club at heart and accept the way those above him run it. This club needs to make a decision re the manger and whatever that decision is they need to be backed and given a chance.

To end on a slight positive, very pleased with Rashford this season and I think Brandon Williams is a proper player. Only one who tried to take the game to city. I think he gets what it means to play for United.

Caolán.

09 Jan 2020 03:30:17
I will never understand this blame it on everyone else defense.

Ole deserves to keep a job if he is a good manager. Even the ones who defend him seem to think he is in over his head and isn't a good one but somehow he should keep his job because there are others at utd as poor or worse at their jobs?

09 Jan 2020 04:43:59
If we don't improve the squad in this Jan window, our season could end in disaster because of the amount of injuries.

09 Jan 2020 05:29:39
80 million for maguire is not a good signing, in fact it’s possibly the biggest waste of money and worst transfer ever! He’s the turning circle of an truck and the pace of a tortoise so unless you’re happy playing a deep defensive line on that huge pitch that is old Trafford then I’d say it’s the worst signing I’ve ever seen. Sorry if I’m being so blunt but face facts. Koulibaly would have been ten times the player.

09 Jan 2020 06:54:52
Csm it’s not a defence of ole, it’s a criticism of the whole club. Our issues run a lot deeper than a manager. What happens in 18 months if Pochettino is in the same boat because he’s not got the squad required as we are happy to do the bare minimum and work like clowns behind the scenes.
Us being poorly run is why ole is in a job, surely you can see this? You will even see in my post that I say the job is not for him.

Also lerchy, the club more than likely wouldn’t meet the valuation of Koulibaly and don’t forget our wonderful recruitment system of 872 right backs scouted. Maguire has been okay, but overpriced. If he is in fact as poor as you suggest, he’s still our best central defender, so what does that say about the squad.

09 Jan 2020 07:07:09
Exactly Caolan.
The price is not the fault of Maguire.

Additionally, he has to cover for the woeful positioning of Shaw. His partner Lindelof is having a poor season so far. The other options Tuanzebe, Rojo and Bailly are constantly injured.
Jones is a mistake waiting to happen.

Most importantly, we don't have a proper defensive midfielder to offer more cover to the defence.

{Ed001's Note - do you not think Lindelöf is struggling because he is having to cover for the woeful positioning of Maguire then? Maguire is not your best defender, he is one of the causes for your abysmal defensive record. Yes Shaw is a problem, but Maguire is making it worse, not better.}

09 Jan 2020 07:24:25
What has happened with Lindelof Ed. Showed so much promise and now has falling off completely.

{Ed001's Note - partially the coaching is not helping him to improve, partially the tactics exposing him and partially he is spending matches with no idea what his defensive partner is doing. They haven't developed an understanding and Maguire is all over the shop with all the positional sense of a drunk wearing a blindfold, who has been spun round until he is dizzy.}

09 Jan 2020 07:42:28
I completely agree Ed, most united goals I see conceded he’s out of position and then looks to blame somebody else. I think tuanzebe needs to be given a go. I also think Leicester look better without maguire as they can now push forward a bit as soyuncu has the pace to cover Evans. Who imo is a much better defender than maguire ever will be and should never have left united. When rio and vidic was there Evans was always pushing and the 3rd best defender.

{Ed001's Note - Evans is a good defender, but he suffered with so many injury problems he could never be relied upon while at United, so it made sense for them to move him on. As for Soyuncu, he has pace and good timing in the tackle but his positioning is awful too. It seems to be a real problem with modern day defenders, very few take up good positions.}

09 Jan 2020 07:50:06
Caolan my post was about ole defenders in general rather than your individual post.

Is the utd board or hierarchy or whatever you call it, most at fault for our demise. Yes, without a doubt yes. Are utd's problems deeper than the manager, definitely yes.

But it doesn't absolve ole of his mistakes, he hasn't made brilliant signings. James has been decent, but the other 2 have a long way to go. We have a 50 mn fb who can't attack at all, an 80 mn cb who can't do anything. 130mn spent on defense and nothing's improved.

You say situation would not be different if we had a better manager, I disagree. A better manager won't have left us this short handed, a better manager would have a clue as to what the players are supposed to do on the pitch.

People who defend ole point to our current position and claim that we wouldn't do better, I disagree. May be if this was a normal season, the team might not be better than a 4-5th at best. But this isn't a normal season, Tottenham have collapsed, arsenal have endured one of their worst ever seasons and yet we find ourselves outside top 4, the only reason we have a sniff at top 4 is because Chelsea's form fell off a cliff in December. A good manager would have us alongside city and leicester this season.

You say what will happen if pochettino's in a similar situation, I would back him because he has shown he can be a decent manager even if he crumbles under pressure at the end of the season. Ole's shown he is utterly useless.

09 Jan 2020 08:02:49
I think it's something VVD has improved on. When at Celtic and Southampton, I thought his positional sense was awful. But since signing for Liverpool, that side of his game has really improved and IMO, he now looks to be one of the best CBs in the world.

I think Liverpool's coaching team deserve a lot of praise for that.

{Ed001's Note - his positional sense was fine, his problem was concentration, he would get caught out of position because he would fall asleep mid-game. It was too easy for him and he would stroll around. What Liverpool have done is wake him up and made him realise he can't coast through games. Well you can't in a defence playing such a high line anyway, as it only takes one momentary lapse and you are watching the ball slid into the back of the net. Sometimes at Southampton he would bring the ball out of defence and then stroll back as well, that has also been taken out of his game as that was when most of Saints' goals were conceded. He would be just about reaching the edge of the box sauntering back while the keeper was picking the ball out of the net.

Klopp is too intense to allow those issues. Every second of every game, whether it is a friendly or a cup final, matters to him. That is transmitted to the players and makes them raise themselves to try and match his expectations. It is reminiscent of the likes of Busby, Shankly, Paisley and Ferguson in that respect, in that he does not just have the desire but he can get the players to feel the same way.

I think Maguire has the same desire, it clearly matters to him from kick off until the final whistle, he wants to win every ball. The problem is that he doesn't have the intelligence to see clearly the difference between going and winning the ball now and waiting for just the right moment to get it. Without that brainpower, it is unlikely he will ever learn it either.}

09 Jan 2020 08:34:03
If there is a better coach in place, you still think it's unlikely he will get any better. City were rumoured to be interested in Maguire surely Pep saw something in him he felt he could teach him.

I didn't think he was worth it when we bought him, in fact I think I said there were are least 5 better CBS in the prem alone but I think he has also gone backwards too.

Worrying times at the club, players regressing, others want out, the question of whether or not players want to move there and a scouting and transfer strategy that seems devoid of any strategy at all.

09 Jan 2020 08:38:38
ed001 with you saying vvd needed to wake up because liverpool play a high line,

would you think it would benefit our defenders to do the same and for the team to play a high line,

or maybe there just not that great and the lack of quality in front of the defenders would just cause more issues.

i think awb is fantastic defensively and Williams i prefer over shaw and rojo at left back.

{Ed001's Note - with two centre-backs who clearly haven't developed an understanding a high line would be a recipe for disaster.}

09 Jan 2020 08:46:54
Maybe pep was bluffing so united jumped the gun? If pep wanted him he’d be there.

09 Jan 2020 08:55:50
angelred i think you have hit the nail there.

with a manager and coaches who know what there doing players would not be walking around half arsed and they would improve.

we risk the decent young players we have not progressing.

09 Jan 2020 09:19:43
Csm, It’s hard to say ole left us short because again Ed told us we wanted 5 players with a goalkeeper potentially if de gea left. He didn’t get it- I point the finger at the board for that one.

Poch I agree is a good manager and has shown that, but in 18 months if we aren’t much better there will be people using the fact he’s not won trophies as the stick to beat him with.

I want poch and I want his back room staff in, purely for the hope some players will improve.

09 Jan 2020 10:58:21
Not a defence of Ole, but why is everyone so keen to allow the people who appointed Moyes, LvG, Jose and Ole to have another shot at it and appoint our next manager?

Moyes and Ole are clearly not good enough, LvG was long past his best and his style was ill suited to the club and Jose although a top manager was a very poor fit for our club.

I see lots of people pointing towards Allegri or Pochettino, they are clearly better managers than Ole. Yet there are clear issues with both of them.

Allegri doesn't speak English (he is learning currently, but a language barrier when a manager is trying to introduce new ideas is always a problem, Ancelotti brought in Ray Wilkins when he moved to Chelsea as he needed someone who spoke both English and Italian to bridge that gap while he improved his English) . Allegri also plays a defensive, pragmatic style of football and has never really been a manager who has helped improve young players. Which considering the make up of our squad would be a glaring issue.

While Pochettino has been given credit for improving young players and can speak English, while his teams tend to play entertaining offensive football. He has yet to show himself as a winner, often crumbling with the finish line in sight. Twice having a no show in a cup final and capitulating to allow Leicester to win the EPL.
I would also question his ability to develop young players, there is a world of difference between giving young players a chance and game time to working with them to improve aspects of their game. Many of the young players he has played improve to a point then stagnate or regress. Dier and Alli being prime examples. While it becomes difficult to name many more youngsters he has given a chance to who have really stepped up and improved. Winks maybe.
Young players under Pochettino have improved their decision making, which is improved through experience. But have they developed their passing range, or their defensive awareness, the quality of their shooting etc.

What sort of manager would the club look to? Are they after a short term fix, a Mourinho type manager who'll come in shake things up get some immediate results but fail to put to have a long term plan. Do they want a top coach who'll improve the players and make our young squad into a side of top players, do they want a manager who'll have a long term plan who is prepared to sacrifice the here and now to build something bigger and more long lasting?

Personally I'd go for Ralf Rangnick, get him in to start to turn the first team around, with a view to him moving into a DoF type role after a couple of years. His sides tend to play good football, while he has a history of developing young players. He is also the kind of person who can plan longer term and create a vision. Whether the club could tempt him is another matter entirely.

09 Jan 2020 11:26:50
Shappy right off the bat there is the stick united fans would use on Poch- trophies. He took spurs to a champions league final and lost to a Liverpool side who have dropped 2 points this season.
I think he is a great manager, you could argue overachieved with spurs. He had no funds to improve the side, so by saying certain players stagnated, is that down to the lack of competition for places? Look at de gea at the moment? I think Henderson this season has been far better but unfortunately that’s for Sheffield United. Could he help be the push to get Dave back to his best?
In every manager in the world there are pros and cons, but out of managers available I think Pochettino fits the philosophy of this club, and is much better than what we have at the moment.

{Ed047's Note - shouldn’t that Mark Robins be your next manager, sure he scored a great goal for you once against Forest didn’t he?

09 Jan 2020 13:07:22
Caolan_2
Tell me what you think of the leeds board and set up?
How are their finances and owners doing.
Ill tell you it's been in turmoil for years. They even had to sell their grounds.
But they play great attacking football. Their players are well coached. They are improving hugely.
Because they have a coach who knows what he is doing.
To say everybody else would do as bad as ole is frankly BS.
Get a proper coach in and thinks will improve on the pitch.
Not too many 10plus million players at leeds but they would beat us i re non 8 times out if 10.

09 Jan 2020 12:32:44
Finally people are realising Maguire is poor and a very expensive mistake.

09 Jan 2020 13:33:18
Caolan it was ole's decision to dump lukaku, if ole had any doubts over woodward's competency, he should have made sure not utd don't sell lukaku before getting a striker in. Same with hererra, he clearly was on the Greenwood bandwagon for some reason and let the transfers happen.

Shappy my first reply to caolan was exactly about your type of a post. A manager shouldn't be sacked for being rubbish because the people appointing the next one are of similar quality, how does that even make sense?

somehow pochettino should not be picked because long term development of players is suspect but keeping ole is fine?

Most would take defensive football with some idea behind it to the nonsense we put on display every week, and the current football is anything but progressive.

Also how was lvg a guy who managed Holland to a wc semi before coming to us past it but a guy who has been employed as a manager only for 2 seasons in past 10 years the perfect choice?

09 Jan 2020 14:16:48
"Not a defence of Ole, but why is everyone so keen to allow the people who appointed Moyes, LvG, Jose and Ole to have another shot at it and appoint our next manager? "

Well mainly down to the fact we have no choice.

At this stage, most managers available are way better than Ole right now. So it shouldn't be a difficult decision to make. Allegri, Poch, Blanc. Any of them are infinitely better than Solskjaer.

09 Jan 2020 14:20:05
Ken Ed001 will tell you how good bielsa is. I will also reverse what you are saying and ask why they are still in the championship?
I agree we need better coaching, but was Jose and his staff poor? Was lvg’s staff poor? We can’t keep blaming every single manager. Look at what Lvg has had to say about the club mate.

09 Jan 2020 12:55:03
I guess you have a thing now for average players who won an FA cup being in charge of their old clubs Ed 😉.

{Ed047's Note - as long as they haven’t failed at Cardiff I’m definitely up for it mate. 😉

09 Jan 2020 16:33:21
Yea why would we want the failed spurs manager?

09 Jan 2020 16:39:29
CSM, with every appointment the club has made we have moved further and further away from where we want to be.

What confidence do you have that THIS time they will move us in the right direction by making the right appointment?

I agree that Ole probably needs to go. For me through the key is when.

Do we rush it and do it now and risk making a mistake. Or do we take our time, consult the right people, maybe even bring in someone who help inform the process and make the decision in due course.

09 Jan 2020 17:07:03
So shappy we shouldn't be making a change when top 4 is still within sight and with chance of giving the new manager extra time to get the team in shape for next season but rather we should be waiting for ole to kill the top 4 Hope's completely and then leave the new manager hamstrung as he will then have to go into the window with no CL football and less time to work his tactics for the new season.

09 Jan 2020 17:34:52
Did spurs get relegated under Poch GDS ;)

09 Jan 2020 19:27:21
Oh I was unaware Cardiff got relegated, nobody has said 😉.

09 Jan 2020 21:43:39
CSM, if we sign the wrong manager and they spend 2 years here, and in that time they don't develop our young players, maybe a couple of good youngsters leave as they can't get in the team, maybe the new manager pushes the club to sign older ready made signing, maybe most of them don't adapt.

We were sure things wouldn't get worse when we demanded the club sack LvG. Surely things would improve. Yet here we are.

This isn't about whether we should or shouldn't replace Ole. It's about doing the due diligence we didn't do last time that ended up with us having Ole as our permanent manager.

10 Jan 2020 04:33:34
Btw, Koulibaly is having a very poor season.
Abysmal defending in most games.