Manchester United Banter Archive June 03 2018

03 Jun 2018 22:23:12
Think we need a new keeper as well, now.

03 Jun 2018 23:21:38
dave the save is putting madrid off.

03 Jun 2018 23:58:24
Well done ddg. Good plan. 😂.

03 Jun 2018 19:25:24
Umtiti new 5 year deal with Barcelona. One less centre back target now which leads me to think Alderwireld is now our number 1 target.

Another example of a player using speculation to get a better contract?

{Ed0333's Note - alderwireld is a far better player than Umtiti and knows how to play in the Premiership. You can’t go wrong with Toby he’ll be a super signing for you if you get him.

03 Jun 2018 20:15:00
He wasn’t using speculation. Simply, his agent told the club he wanted a better contract, and used the fact that other clubs were willing to meet his buyout clause for leverage. Player has always said he’s happy at Barca, but wants a wage comparable to teammates.

03 Jun 2018 20:20:33
I was hoping he was first choice Ed!

I've always questioned Umtiti's attitude so I'm glad to know we are looking elsewhere.

03 Jun 2018 19:55:50
Spot on ed he is a top player. Will be delighted if he signs.

03 Jun 2018 21:47:40
Agreed Park. Hope we can sign him. And hope bailly can partner him.

03 Jun 2018 22:40:01
Agreed AAA bailly must start. No excuses for him not playing if he is fit. I’m a massive fan and think he could be up there with the best. Bailly and Alderweireld pairing would be as good as anyone in league.

04 Jun 2018 07:04:51
Not our money of course and money is one topic to spark a row on here but. most of the tabloids saying today as they did last week its 75 mill for Alderweireld . I know he has a release clause next season for 25 mill . but really 75 mill? even if we knock them down 6-7 mill that's really top dollar for a fella coming off a long injury.

04 Jun 2018 10:59:03
If we have that partnership, Bailly and Alderweireld then I would expect our back line higher and start to see more committed forward.

04 Jun 2018 11:00:27
Read somewhere that JM was fed up with Bailly being in/ out of the team throughout season (returning from injuries/ Africa cup etc) so wouldn’t surprise me if he went.

Maybe JM was making a point to him at end of season to sort himself out.

03 Jun 2018 15:03:38
How do we properly assess a manager's results in relation to his transfer dealings? Is net spend relevant, especially in the early years when the squad may be void of quality and inherent market value, and the manager has to rebuild from the ground up?

The fact is, as Park points out below, Jose's acquisition costs have not been particularly high in relation to the managers of the other top teams. His results by any reasonable measure have not been bad, certainly better than Poch and Wenger. We've managed to get back to 2nd in the league and we've won 2 trophies. From a results point of view Mourinho has been successful, though perhaps not as successful as we would like.

Let's start to look at net spend once he's had the opportunity to fully make the team his own and rid it it of the LVG/ Moyes hangovers. Additionally, if we are to consider net spend then we would also need to consider market value of the squad, because some of the deficit in net spend may be more than made up by actual market value.

03 Jun 2018 15:40:02
Spot on shaw I said something similar down the page. United rarely sell their top players to rivals in their prime, except with Ronaldo and di Maria. We have average players on huge contracts which is down to our own doing. But that makes it difficult to get these players off the book. So when we sell these players they are often surplus to requirements. Hopefully we will start selling some of these players and improve the squad more.

03 Jun 2018 15:41:50
Another issue is when we bid for a player there seems to be a premium of 20m added on. Other clubs don’t face this as much as we do. Whether that’s down to negotiation or not I’m not sure. But morata springs to mind. Was priced at 75m to us but Chelsea bought him for 60m. At the end of the day we need to take the same stance with our top players like De Gea or pogba. We seem to be starting to do that which is great to see.

03 Jun 2018 16:17:21
Surely they have to be judged if they successfully fill a need that you bought them for.

For example we bought darmian to be our first choice right back. We probably still need a first choice right back even though valencia has performed admirably.

Shaw to be left back for years and years. Still need a left back.

Bailly, lindelof and rojo and we still need a commanding centre half.

Blind, schweinsteiger, fellaini, Schneiderlin. Still have a hole to fill in midfield.

Depay, sanchez, martial and we still need to buy a winger.

Whether they cost £1 mil or £100 million if they don't fill a role then they have been a flop.

03 Jun 2018 16:22:02
The manager is only a part (sometimes a small part ) of the process of identifying a player .

03 Jun 2018 16:31:07
Good post DSG - throw in Miki and Sanchez who look like shadows of the players they were as well.

I mentioned the other day that the problem isn't just Jose most managers make poor signings, but his signings have left a lot to be desired for the most part. Matic gets lots of praise, but he looked like he was running in treacle most games and he was often redundant when it came to snuffing out danger - contributing next to nothing going forward (compare him to Fernandinho, Kante, Dembele and it's a no contest) . We paid a lot of money for a small upgrade on Herrera. Lukaku has played well under the circumstances, but he doesn't fit a team with no wingers and no proper fullbacks - so deal doesn't make sense, nothing against the big man though who has done well off scraps.

Pogba has been ok, quality a handful of times, irrelevant the vast majority. For that money being spent you would expect better consistent quality being signed - so Jose has been very poor in the market. Again the weakness of LVG has helped Jose and schewed opinion, as for some bizarre reason people still use LVG as the benchmark.

03 Jun 2018 18:52:21
On the money there Beastie Boy.

03 Jun 2018 19:42:29
The reason of the players haven't performed is becauae of themselves. I think Lukaku did a very good job this year, i didn't really rate him that much.

Aa for players like mkhi and Pogba they are to blame themselves.

Matic has done a good job but he is getting older and isn't really superfast to run around and be everywheree.

03 Jun 2018 20:16:49
Do we want to give Mourinho more money to spend?

He has bought 2 centre backs already, and he still feels he needs another one. For some reason he dropped our only class CB in Bailly towards the end of the season and he didn't really give a real reason.

He gave Zlatan a huge contract while injured and he hardly played for the side again.

He has fallen out with Pogba, his own signing.

He has already sold Mkhitaryan, and Sanchez is let to prove his worth.

He has signed 8 players for nearly 300m. Only Matic and Lukaku can be called real successes so far.

So judging by his current average if he signs 4 players this summer three will be underwhelming and one will be a success.

So why would you want him to spend another 200-250m for one good player?

03 Jun 2018 20:26:51
Shappy

You need to stop with all the negativity and get with the programme.

Jose is the Messiah.

Jose has incredible relations his with his players.

Jose is the best man manager that has ever lived.

Jose was won like to of trophies, ergo Hea will win many more.

He has signed excellent players; if they have turned out to be pants that is down to them, not Jose who is completely blameless.

Players when fall out with ajose need a good talking to, they need to learn who the Messiah is and get a grip.

Shappy, enough with the doom mongering, we are on a steep upward curve and this time next year we will have won every trophy on offer. Stop being a sourpuss.

03 Jun 2018 20:28:47
DSG and Beast. Hit the nail on the head. Another point is which of our players can we honestly say are playing better? Valencia Shaw young hererra matic smalling jones bailly lindelof martial pogba Rashford lukaku mata sanchez Mctominay da gea lingard? Out of all these, ddg, but he has a gk coach. Young has had a good season. Lukaku has had a good start to his life in a United shirt. And Mctominay and Lingard have played well.
The rest of the players have been bang average. Can 10-12 players all have poor seasons out of coincidence? I'm not sure.

03 Jun 2018 20:41:13
You’re all wrong. Jose is doing great stuff, great great stuff. He has one of the greatest ever football brains, so big that he can control Luke Shaw’s body from the sideline. If we didn’t have Jose, we probably would be in league 1 by this stage.

03 Jun 2018 22:25:47
Biggly.

03 Jun 2018 22:36:49
Fake Noucamp.

04 Jun 2018 04:04:35
Is having a new manager in a World Cup season really that good of an idea? What with the reduced transfer window period in England.

04 Jun 2018 07:04:59
Is it better to keep walking down the wrong path rather than turn back and go the right way, just because it's getting dark?

04 Jun 2018 08:02:27
Judging by how posters go, the new manager (whoever he is) got no chance at all. Half a season of bad performance and results and everyone would want him to get out of the club.

04 Jun 2018 10:57:39
Shappy how are we walking down the wrong path? We have improved in every aspect of our game apart from in playing style. We have scored more goals, conceded less, highest position in over 5 years. Of course the playing style is terrible but we are playing with a defence that’s not good enough and two ex wingers as full backs. The club are actively looking to address this, whilst looking to add some quality in the cb and cm positions. Yes his man management has been poor with certain players but quite frankly in some cases it has been needed. Fergie used to sell players who he perceived was against his regime. I’m sure if Jose did that there would be an uproar on this site. Your dislike for Jose clouds some of your posts. What precedent does it set if we are sacking managers who finish second in the league?

Look at the situation Chelsea are in. Yes there are other issues there but sacking managers has harmed them in the long run. They have a hugely talented set of youngsters that have won the treble and quadruple in the last few years but have not been integrated into the squad. Whose fault is that? I suppose you think it’s jose’s But it’s a club structure issue where a manager is not there long enough to promote and work with these talented youngsters.

I don’t want to see us go that way. Whose to say if Jose stays and is successful he won’t promote the talented youth players such as Chong, Gomes or Hamilton? The club have promoted both McKenna and Carrick from within into coaching roles with McKenna said to be taking charge of training sessions. His youth team played some lovely football and I think it’s a great appointment. Do you really think the club did this against jose’s Will? Of course he endorsed this. The narrative that he is a miserable stubborn ego maniac is so boring and our own fans have been brainwashed by it. Yes he has narcissistic tendencies but you don’t get to the top without it. He may not be a right fit for united, I have reserved judgement on this till the end of next season. But I can guarantee the next manager will have a great squad to build with if and when he goes.

04 Jun 2018 14:51:54
Park or we will be left with a load of 30 year olds while our top youngster have left.

By the way the club buy players not Jose.

04 Jun 2018 15:31:01
Jred who said the top youngsters are leaving? Rashford is going nowhere and it’s only real martial who may be off. I think that would be a mistake for sure but I think he will stay another year.

Three of jose’s Signings can be considered ‘old’. Zlatan, Sanchez and matic. Sanchez is turning out to look like a mistake but I will give him the benefit of joining mid season. Miki again was 27 but he is no longer here. Zlatan in our first year was a good signing imo, but keeping him was a massive mistake. Seemed to be for sentimental reasons rather than logic. But he has now left as well. Matic has been a really good signing and we needed that experience in the middle of the park.

The rest of his signings are players who are young, so again the narrative he only signs finished articles doesn’t hold up. Bailly (24), pogba (25), Lukaku (25), lindelof (23) are all good buys imo. The issue remains that Jose is not getting the most out of them currently. Hardly leaving behind an old squad. Add the potential additions of Fred (25), dalot (19), Sandro (26), Milinkovic-Savic (23) and these are not ‘short-termism’ buys. Ok Alderweireld is 29 and bale is 28, but they are both established world class players that we need. I don’t see how people can argue that Jose only buys old players. It’s just another stick to beat him with to suit the agenda against him.

My issue with him is that he is not getting the best out of the squad at all. If we are still in a similar position come January I will be in the Jose out camp. But he deserves another year of backing and support from us fans to try and win us the league. I don’t why that’s a problem for some fans.

04 Jun 2018 15:59:23
Park
I'm in the camp I would give him another 12 month .
But can't understand all these post about Jose "doing no wrong" .

04 Jun 2018 16:10:08
Jred I’m with you mate. I’m in the same camp as you. I don’t understand why it has to be two polar opposites of in or out.

03 Jun 2018 00:40:53
Hope we start seeing, and perhaps encouraging, rumours that Real Madrid really want Jose as their manager!

03 Jun 2018 01:22:37
Careful what you wish for Cinderella, next manager could just as easily turn into a pumpkin.

03 Jun 2018 08:12:08
Lets hope it happens before he buys Grealish Hart and Anautovic, and before he sells pogba lukaku mata bailly because they decided to step over the halfway line without his permission.

03 Jun 2018 10:06:48
AAA 😂. I know you don’t like Jose but can you write one post which is not clouded by your disdain for him? At the end of the day you are entitled to your opinion and I enjoy reading your posts. But you’ve already written Jose off and waiting for the ‘I told you so moment’. Like I have said before he has said and done some odd things but he has also done a lot of good which seems to go unnoticed by some fans. It’s always easier to be negative then positive I suppose. The grass is not always greener.

03 Jun 2018 10:13:14
So if Jose went who is available? Poch going nowhere tuchel at psg zz apparently on his way to international football. Who is free and would do better than Jose?

03 Jun 2018 10:26:53
Park, i don't hate Mourinho. I just don't like his attitude with the players, the fans and the media. And i don't like the style of football he plays.
He has brought a bit of stability but that has also come with huge expenditure, and we've already seen where Guadiola has gone in comparrison to Mourinho. Have you seen guadiola critisize one of his players in public? He has had his spats with Toure and Aguero. But he's not come out and trashed them on tv.
Mourinho has bought and sold mkhitaryan. He's bought Pogba and Bailly and has benched them and frozen them out. He lambasted Lukaku, another one of his buys, on Tv after the cup final. He's also critisized Martial, Rashford and Shaw in the press. Are we really this desperate to put up with Mourinho?
Im sure he's a charming man outside football. But he's got to learn how to handle players otherwise, he'll not be here in a year's time.

03 Jun 2018 10:39:12
I’ll do it. I’m busy after September, but I’ll spare a few hours here and there to get us back to the top. First big decision, resign O’Shea.

03 Jun 2018 11:14:03
AAA if we are talking about expenditure then this is how much each manager has spent since they joined their respective clubs:

Pochettino - 250m (0 trophies)
Klopp - 323m (0 trophies)
Conte - 306m (2 trophies)
Wenger (*since Poch joined) - 252m 2 trophies
Pep - 380m ( 2 trophies)
Jose - 295m ( 2 trophies)

We will I think spend a huge amount this summer so the numbers will be skewed but pep has spent nearly a 100m more. That’s a whole Defense. We are playing with a Defense with 2 ex wingers and 2 cbs that are not good enough. Yes it is baffling why Jose is not bailly and lindelof together but if you really think any of the top 6 managers could win the league with our defence then I think your kidding yourself.

Yes Jose has challenged the players in public but how much have you written is 90% of the media narrative disparaging both united and Jose? You say pep has not criticised yaya and Aguero in public. Yet he consistently complained that his team gets targeted by the opposition, named a bench of 6 players instead of promoting a youth player to ‘send a message’ and he gets labelled the messiah for youth whilst Jose has integrated and played more youth players than any other top 6 club in the league. But hey that doesn’t fit the media narrative.

I appreciate your points but you fail to see any of the positives that he has done. You have listed just the negatives but how about we talk about the improvements. People seem to forget how bad in a situation we were in when we sacked lvg. We have score more goals, conceded less, came (a distant) second in the league, champions league for consecutive years for the first time since Fergie left and with a lot of very good youth players coming back from loan or close to being integrated into the first team. We have promoted two young and exciting coaches from within in McKenna and Carrick which suggests Jose is open to new ideas and a fresh approach for next season. What is there no to be excited about? ehy do we always have to be negative when in reality there is a great platform to push in from next year.

Yes the style has been crap but with some really exciting additions there is only room for improvements. What’s the point of going Into the season already conceding the title to city. Let’s focus on ourselves and not what our rivals are doing. Sacking Jose now is not the answer. And there is nobody (apart from perhaps Zizou) who is openly available. Back the manager because he is one of us as long as he is a united manager. And when he goes my support goes from him and to the next manager. How can he succeed when his own fans are willing him to fail (not you just some plastics on Twitter) .

03 Jun 2018 11:46:42
Park one of the best posts i seen in a while.

03 Jun 2018 11:50:22
lets see how the season pans out. Mourinho will have a different coaching set up so you never know.

03 Jun 2018 11:56:23
Brilliant post park. Too many of our fans are believing the media narrative of hating on Jose. He even gets hate on "Potential" signings and "potential" outgoings" that the media make up. Fergies farewell speech he said the fans need to support the new manager which tbf we have but the mood at the moment is of waiting for Jose to fail to turn on him.

03 Jun 2018 12:01:23
Great post Park, you are spot on the time the media narrative, Jose could play an eleven of youth then be labelled as undermining united by playing them or he could not play any and be labelled for not promoting youth, it really is pathetic and if I was anyone here I’d pay little attention to the media and so called pundits as they all have a story to spin to make things more exciting.
I’m as split as anyone on Jose but that’s mainly down to the style of play, can’t argue what he’s done to improve us.
Again spot on about our defence, I find it funny people say we’ve a great defence, it’s massively covered up by Matic and DDG in particular, people forget we conceded more goals than City and by the time we spent £100m plus to improve our defence just as city did they’d have spent that and more again, unfortunately the way of the football world is so that you have to spend or not be competing, The club can’t afford to not be so I envisage another £200-£250m this summer and it should in theory get us closer to city next season.

03 Jun 2018 12:38:28
#wengerin.

03 Jun 2018 13:32:53
Park, you should factor in outgoing players/ sales as well as incoming players when comparing the amounts spent by the clubs.

03 Jun 2018 14:43:40
Thats not right Jackson. If that is the criteria then we should factor in that United has revenues way more than any of those clubs. That gives us extra to spend on our players. Also, the players we have bought have been at over inflated prices because of the size ou or club.

03 Jun 2018 15:12:25
I think the problem supporters have with Jose is that after two years at the club the style and standard of football seem to be on a downward trajectory. This season, in particular, the team seems to have become progressively more cautious and defence orientated. Added to this, the first team is starting to look older and older. The contrast to Pep, Poch and Klopp, is that they are building exciting young teams, whereas Jose is building a boring team. I just don’t think he has the best interests of the club in mind. It’s about winning Jose trophies in the short term, no thought to long term stability.

03 Jun 2018 15:37:23
Jackson I hate the word net spend. Now before people say it’s relevant hear me out. How many times in the last 10 years have united sold a player who was in the prime and wanted to move onto a club on par or bigger in stature than man united? I can think of two - Ronaldo obviously and then di Maria. When players leave united it’s often when they are unwanted by the club or they are past there best and it’s time to wind down their career. Someone like Liverpool or arsenal have been selling their best players for years. Arsenal have lost a big player almost every year since rvp joined united. Liverpool have sold two world class players in coutinho and Suarez for astronomical fees. Credit to Liverpool they have got a great fee for coutinho and have been investing well and are on the up. They will soon keep hold of their players. But to judge a club like united, who don’t lose their top players in their prime (yet - it may start happening), on net spend is not a fair parameter for judging spending.

The other issue united have is they are paying average players ridiculous wages. So getting them off the books can be tough when they know they can run down their contract on a cool £100,000 a week. This is an issue which the club have created from mismanagement and panic buying. But that is another rant for another time!

This may be controversial but I feel if a club has a high net spend then it can tend to suggest in some situations that the owners are not investing appropriately into the club. Instead they are pocketing the funds instead of investing it in the team. Arsenal comes to mind. So for me the net spend parameter has little significance and is a poor way to measure whether a club has been successful in the market.

03 Jun 2018 17:32:02
If a club buys 10 players for 10 million and sell them for say 100 they will have a very good net spend .
They will imo also of done very well in the transfer market .
Doesn't mean the owners have pocketed money .

03 Jun 2018 17:37:11
Net spend is also relevant when a team like spurs with a net spend of 40 mil over 4 year have to sell its best players.

03 Jun 2018 20:37:54
Park. I never mentioned money as i really don't care what the club pay for players providing we can afford them.
I was talking about the way Mourinho handles himself and the players. I was talking about the boring football we churn out most weeks. As Danny P says, you see Guadiola and Klopp building exciting teams and very successful in Guadiola's case, but mourinho is building a defensive team. And the irony is that, when teams attack us, we look absolute rubbish in defence. Its because the tactics he's deploying, deep lying and very little pressing, are putting us under continuous pressure. It doesn't take a football manager to work this out, we can all see what's happening.

03 Jun 2018 21:12:07
AAA I’m not disputing we are playing turgid football. You know from the majority of my posts I always evaluate and acknowledge both sides of the argument. I understand you think him staying another year is going to be a backward step. I think the opposite. Not expecting us to play free flowing beautiful football, but I expect to enjoy next season and to be entertained. Respect your view but disagree on parts of it. Let’s Agree to disagree.

04 Jun 2018 11:03:39
Funny that you hate the term "net spend" Park! As that totally blows your who spent what and won what post above out of the water, listen your trying to defend your manager and look at positives for him which is good, but don't use money spent because your just embarrassing yourself. He's the wrong manager for your team and he's turning you into a pale sterile imitation of man United and you should get rid, hopefully the club thinks like you and he stays, because his short term view in order to enhance his own reputation will have massive implications for you club long term.