Manchester United Banter Archive December 03 2019

03 Dec 2019 22:57:48
Question for anybody who wishes to answer. If the club decides to sack Ole if he loses the next 2 games and hires everyone's preferred choices in Poch or Allegri and they're backed in the January window and results don't improve i.e we continue in the same vein of inconsistent results or / and performances, and there is no improvement in style or pattern of play, are you willing to afford them the time?

Based on some posts I've read here that should be more than enough time to implement some change based on the works done by Lampard and Rodgers at their respective clubs.

04 Dec 2019 07:02:31
If we appoint someone who knows what they are doing we do need to give them time and be patient. We should see a structure about how they want to play, something we have not seen from OGS. If we appointed Simeone for example, his portfolio of work at Athletico has been excellent in the difficult shadow of Madrid and Barca, in fact the way he has got amongst those two is not too dissimilar to the way SAF broke up the old firm. Dislodging Barcelona with Messi or Madrid with Ronaldo was a bigger challenge. Still the point remains, I for one would feel in far safer hands with someone like that in charge, rather than someone who relegated Cardiff.

04 Dec 2019 08:30:32
Lucia, Shappy answered that of sorts on the Discussions page.

04 Dec 2019 08:42:48
Yeah but he hasn't got all day to read it😂.

04 Dec 2019 09:00:31
It will be an endless cycle of fans not showing patience and the manager being fired because he doesn't bring instant success.

Until the foundations are laid, then everything built upon uneven ground will crumble and fall down around us.

We will not be successful under any manager until the club has some vision, direction and a stable plan. Until the club knows it's identity, and can distinguish between the wrong person to bring in and the right one on every level then we will continue to struggle.

Soon the club will be known for damaging managers and players reputations rather than enhancing them. At that point bringing in the right sort of people will become harder and harder. Then it becomes a very long road back, 10-20 years or more.

Think about Liverpool in the late 90's through all the 00's and even through most the 10's. They struggled to get the best up and coming managers, and even when they did get a good manager they couldn't attract the top players. They still managed to bring in some excellent players, but only by bringing them in as young unproven talent and developing them. They couldn't consistently bring in the right calibre of player so could never take that next step until recently when they could both afford and attract the right level of player and bought VvD and Alisson. Which elevated them to that next level.

30 years to get back to the top because they lost the ability to attract the top players. We are losing that now. Another couple of bad appointments and we will have lost it. We can't afford to be arrogant and say "we are Manchester United, the best will always want to come to us" the truth is even under Sir Alex at the peak of his powers we were unable to bring in some of the biggest names. Batistuta, Ronaldinho, Maldini, Nesta, Del Piero, Thuram and Seedorf these are all players we tried to sign at one point or another and couldn't convince them.

So let's move on from that arrogance and misbelief.

Ole might not be the right man, he isn't doing the best job in terms of results. And ultimately that will cost him his job. But is the club ready, prepared, have a plan for what comes next? If not then it will be more of the same regardless of who is managing the side.

04 Dec 2019 09:32:05
11,2,11,10,11. Fergie's first five seasons here.

04 Dec 2019 09:41:10
We need to survive this season and Ole has not shown any experience to suggest he can help with that.

Patrick I supported for 20 years already when SAF arrived. How many times must we explain what he did at Aberdeen bares no resemblance to relegating Cardiff.

04 Dec 2019 10:00:29
Red man, we might be further away from top four than we would like. But the club isn't going to get relegated this season.

That wouldn't happen even if me or you were in charge. There are at least 5-8 sides playing worse than we are. Saying the club will get relegated unless we sack Ole is hyperbole, plain and simple.

04 Dec 2019 10:02:41
Shappy, the man has had a year in charge. No improvement in the players. Tactically inept. We are on a downward spiral. What we need now is a coach that can get the best out of the players and there are coaches available who would do a better job than Ole.

Any sort of improvement and he would have the support but he's not taken his chance. If the new manager is in 12th after 1 year in charge, then they'll lose their job.

The bare minimum should be us challenging top 4. We're closer to relegation. That is not progress. It hasn't worked out for the man. The decisions he made in hindsight were naive and winning 1 in 4 as the manager of Manchester United should never be acceptable.

{Ed001's Note - the are a number of things people are forgetting when they trot out Fergie comparisons. For starters Fergie was a proven winner, with a track record of winning trophies. Secondly he had to completely rebuild the club from top to bottom, apart from the academy. Ole has no involvement in most of that, he is a head coach not a manager. Thirdly he had to completely change the way players approached the game, as he took over a team still stuck in the 70s drinking culture. Ole's players are, mainly, good pros who understand they need to eat and drink correctly.

Ole's responsibilities are training and tactics. Nothing else. So the only questions are whether he is keeping the players fit enough, whether they are organised in their play, whether they understand what they are meant to be doing, if they are improving under his guidance and if he is tactically getting the most out of his team.}

04 Dec 2019 10:08:33
Its quite common when a new manager comes in either permanent or caretaker, that there is a spike of better form/ results or performance. In ole's case it was more than a spike and I reckon he was given the job prematurely.
A lot of behind the scenes reasons as to why the form and results have become so poor but tactical awareness and personnel are the primary reasons for failure. Ole doesn't seem tactically strong and has no plan a, b or c :it seems like he just sends the players out and they have to work it out for themselves.
Regarding personnel, maquire is the most overated player in the squad with his game lacking pace and consisting of either a 10 yard pass to lindlehof or an innacurate blast to williams/ left full back. In the case of williams on Sunday he did the same thing approx 16 times and although footballers aren't generally known by mensa membership numbers, even the most inept could work out to stop the ball down the line to james/ rash by closing the yopungun down and forcing it inside to fred.

Lindlehof looks flustered and awb form has deteriated to the point were he can't cross the half way line never mind the ball.
We have understaffing in mid areas along with injuries, lack of mobility and ability. Upfront we have a threat but if any of rash, james or martial are injured we have no goal threat.
We are a team in transition and it takes time and is a never ending task to improve any team but without a core of ateam we will continue to languish mid table with poor results. Its 6 seasons on from saf and we have overall never progressed to 2013 levels that we were at :we have regressed. We haven't got many more chances to get on the right path so the next move imust be a right move.

04 Dec 2019 10:52:19
Redman, do you think Fergie would have kept Cardiff up? Aberdeen were as good as Celtic and Rangers - both in decline. Fergus was close to the sack at United. Playing appalling football and losing. Yes he did turn things around, but it took six years. And stop playing the age card I am older than you!

04 Dec 2019 10:57:53
I think what ed001 is saying is of fundamental importance. People like Fergie and Wenger were trying to change the nature of the English game - changing broad attitudes to training, lifestyle, and general professionalism. To do this they were given a guiding role throughout their respective clubs.

Ole, in contrast, is the first team coach. His job is to put the right team together to develop the best tactical approach to win games given the players he has. When I hear nonsense like Ole is changing the culture at the club, I cringe at the blatant lies. What Ole means is that he is trying to motivate players to work hard. It’s not changing a culture like Fergie did with drinking, it’s basic coaching. A culture Ole could tackle is social media, but there is no evidence that he is even trying to do this.

During the summer Shappy was arguing that Ole can’t be blamed for transfer failings because he doesn’t control it. I suspect this is true, but if it is it just hammers home that the only thing he should be judged on is performances on the pitch. If we judge him on this, he is absolutely failing and has shown no evidence that he can ever succeed.

04 Dec 2019 11:13:21
Ole is clueless. He was only brought in as a kind of "Kevin Keegan "from the board. The board are clueless and have been lying for years.
Ive lived through the 70s relegation and if something doesn't happen fast come Feb when we are getting battered by the top teams we will soon be in a relegation dog fight and our squad isn't good enough 😞😞.

04 Dec 2019 11:17:48
Patrick

SAF was a motivational genius and whilst it can never be confirmed I do think he would have kept Cardiff up. They were not in the relegation zone when Ole took over. The damning thing is after buying 9 players in summer Ole had them failing again in the Championship. There is no comparison whatsoever with Ole and SAF.

04 Dec 2019 11:29:28
Comparison. One was an average player and one of the greatest managers ever. The other was a great player for United and one of our worst managers ever.

04 Dec 2019 11:32:47
There are any number of managers who could have this squad in a better position, playing better football,
Just as well Leicester fans didn't think that this time last year. Amazing what a good coach can do.
Sheffield United amazing progress.
Red bull amazing progress.
In very short periods.

04 Dec 2019 11:32:41
And Ed001, what would your consensus be on the Ole the manager?

{Ed001's Note - not good enough tactically nor do the players look fit enough to play the style he said he wanted to play. The reason you struggle to hold onto leads is that your players are flagging at the end of matches. There is a lack of organisation as well, which doesn't help the players as they are doing a lot more running around than they need to trying to fill in gaps due to players being poorly positioned.

On the plus side, he does seem very able to motivate the players to play for him. They can't be accused of not putting in an effort.}

04 Dec 2019 11:52:52
Redman, did you want Fergie out after his first four or five years? Or could you see signs of his "motivational genius? "

04 Dec 2019 12:33:08
I think the players generally like him but his ability to get a reaction after a poor result is non existant. Maybe his biggest mistake was his coaching staff he put around him. He needs help in a lot of areas and unfortunately Man Utd isn't a place you should be allowed to learn on the job.

04 Dec 2019 12:36:18
Some of the comments on here are ridiculous. We have lost 4 games. Sames as Chelsea. We have lost nearly all of the points by surrendering leads to teams outside of the top 4.

And. We. Have. No. Midfield!

The squad is thread bare and we knew that coming into the season. McSauce is a massive positive in the season (thankfully) but we knew we would struggle if we got CM injuries. No Pogba, No Matic and No McSauce was always going to be a big problem.

Second half of the season maybe some of the young guns will have grown and developed enough to start games against Shef Utd or Villa. But right now Ole is doing the right thing by playing them in the cup games.

I understand it is frustrating to see us in mid table. But some reality is needed surely!

04 Dec 2019 12:38:15
Patrick

I was frustrated and embarrassed when we lost 5.1 to City, was it 89? However after the Sexton debacle and promise of Atkinson I knew he had success in Aberdeen so needed time. I knew the challenge he had more than most because I used to frequent a pub and two of the players known for drinking were absolutely out of it on a Thursday night. I never called for Mourinho’s head either because I knew he had what it took and needed time. Ole doesn’t have the background, that simple.

04 Dec 2019 13:28:45
Redman, nothing is that simple. Two top midfielders in Jan/ summer and then we can judge Ole.
Also, you really should have had a word with Norm and Paul back then!

04 Dec 2019 13:40:37
Patrick

They were not capable of speech

We cannot let this go on, Ole is out of his depth, by some distance and can put us in real trouble if allowed to continue.

04 Dec 2019 13:43:39
Red Man, Mourinho could have strangled a 16 year old Greenwood and you would have still backed him.

The club was on fire and all Jose was doing was splashing petrol around the place.

Picking fights, sulking and publicly slagging off the club and the players.

Also you say Jose needed time, when in his career has giving Jose time worked? His CV shows that he rarely makes it past his third season and has never completed a forth at any club.

If CV's and past records are so important to you, then why are you so blind to Jose's "three year" problem?

04 Dec 2019 19:35:10
Shappy

No not blind to his history. It should have told the club how to manage him but the amateurs didn’t support him in the summer transfer window so what happened was hardly a surprise.

On the same basis, we should believe that Ole will relegate us this season.

05 Dec 2019 11:59:25
I agree, Jose should never have been hired.

03 Dec 2019 17:12:19
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new player profile about, Egy Maulana Vikri

03 Dec 2019 11:39:31
I really have had enough now. I don't post a great deal any more but I want to post this.

As much as I love Ole he is making the same excuses week in week out. Defends picking Pereira every week without fail because he's improving - is he? Is he a young boy still at 24 whose played all over Europe? Are the boys getting closer to winning? Shouldn't they be winning?! We are Manchester United but it seems we have more in common with Burnley than our historic rivals.

22 points behind Liverpool after 14 games is a joke. Top 4 is as good as gone and it's the first week of December.

The message seems to be there's no pressure on Ole? Why not! Arsenal have sacked a manager with a 49% win record and are above us in the league. Ole is down at 27% wins and will find himself in the bottom 3 after loses to Spurs and City.

Surely, surely we can do better than this?

Poch is available now - please, please do the right thing and bring him in before he is taken away from us like Klopp and Pep were.

03 Dec 2019 12:30:31
Fresh, the message from ole is we are happy, we are 22 points adrift but we're happy, 2 points from 2 promoted teams but we're happy,
Tony martial might not look it but he is happy, and Ed Woodward have you seen his bank account he is happy, the United fans they are happy cause I am happy, well except for Jamie from the United page he isn't one bit happy,
The football is rubbish but we're happy, kind regards big love from ole.

03 Dec 2019 13:08:31
😂😂 good post leahy.
We really need to stuff spurs tomorrow.

03 Dec 2019 13:13:33
For me it’s rotten from top to bottom:

Outdated and delapidated facilities
Outdated academy
Overpaid average players here for a pay cheque
A inexperienced coaching team led by journey man
A manager completely out of his depth
A transfer team that has learned nothing over the last 6 years
And at the top an executive vc who is completely unfit for his role

Year after year the club has resisted meaningful change, and us fans have aided this by allowing them pin the blame on individual managers. When Ole was given the permanent job I said that this was more evidence that the club has zero intention of investing the time, money and energy needed to get us back to challenging for titles. They have resisted reform for so long that we are now a midtable level side, at best.

03 Dec 2019 15:09:23
Spot on Danny exactly what I’ve been saying for years. The club is rotten from top to bottom but the clowns who make the decisions ain’t going anywhere anytime soon.

03 Dec 2019 15:31:58
Like yourself Fresh, I don't post very often. I've tried my hardest (debating hard with RedMan in the early days) to stay faithful to Ole, to be optimistic in the face of his tactical naivety - but yes, this is beyond ridiculous. Our inability to compete effectively and ruthlessly against mediocre teams is sufficient evidence that Ole is out of his depth. In fact, he shouldn't be allowed in the pool.

I'm also afraid (for Ole, as I have huge respect for his values and desire to make the club great again) that Ole is walking a frayed tightrope at the moment. Frayed because it's dependent upon the football management based incompetence of Ed Woodward. Woodward has engineered a situation, whereupon isolating one of the best managers in the game (Jose) through an alleged transfer policy, that in order to save his own face he now has to resolutely show how commanding and strategic he can be by giving his full support to arguably the worst manager we have had since Dave Sexton. Even Moyes had more pedigree, however we would not have won the league under Moyes were he still there.

One final point, I'm sick to death of the anti-Poch line of 'what has he won? '. Really? In this country, he rejuvenated Southampton and Spurs (neither perennial winners) whilst taking Spurs to a Champions League final, which we will never know, but robbed of one of the best strikers in Europe he may have won. Regardless, that is a resume that contrasts very well against Ole's. If we wait too much longer we will be in a position where Leicester will seem more attractive once Rogers (who I would take in a heartbeat) leaves for Arsenal.

Sad times, but the game of football is an evolution, and our time will come again.

03 Dec 2019 16:16:27
Top post BadRedDevil.

03 Dec 2019 17:33:04
Nothing but a Spurs win tomorrow i'm afraid . They are a different force now and Dele Ali looks like the player we hoped Pogba was. 🤣🤣.

03 Dec 2019 07:39:02
{Ed's Note - Ed001 has posted a new article entitled, Review Of The Day 3rd December 2019

03 Dec 2019 08:39:27
Thanks ed.

{Ed001's Note - welcome.}